is religion real ?

[Sovieto]

I wouldn't be a Christian still if I haven't seen some things with my own eyes.

We've all seen **** or been through ****. That is what convinced me there was no God at a very young age, accepting reality is better in my view than putting Jesus between it and myself as a block for the weak.

And yes I mean that. Faith is for the weak, those who can't accept or cope with reality or are scared of trying to. The whole concept of "heaven" is an example of this.

 

[RPGMasterTurk91]

Err, what do you mean by that? How do you know that animals know their 'purpose'? How do you know they have a 'purpose' as such?


Err, regulate it in what way? Animals have adapted to be suited to a specific environment, and natural factors make sure that no species is too dominant (outside of human interference that is). Such processes as the preditor/prey dynamic, in which a preditor needs prey, so without enough prey, the preditor would die, and with fewer preditors, the prey would thrive, allowing more foor for the preditor.


Interesting view. Kinda has to start with the belief in God for it to work, so it's not 'proving God' per se. Another thing is, is that this view is still semi-compatible with atheistic views, instead of seeing miracles, we simply appreciate the wonder of nature itself, such as the view I discussed about Eistein.


Presumably by Allah, you mean the process which were created by Allah (at least in an Islamic perspective). Though I don't think suspended is quite the right word for a bird in flight (suspended denotes, at least in English, that it is static in it's position, while birds are in fact moving forwards - except animals like humming birds, but that's slightly different, due to the amount of flapping of the wings).

A bird uses great energy when it takes flight because it has to lift all its body with its tiny wings. Yet, once it is up in the air, Allah has made it easy for it to remain aloft without expending too much effort. Birds can fly for a long time by allowing themselves to rely on the wind. This way, they hardly tire since they consume very little energy. When the effect produced by the wind diminishes, they begin to flap their wings again. By means of this feature Allah has given birds, they can cover very long distances and migrate to remote destinations.

It is interesting that birds' legs, so slender and little in comparison to their bodies, can carry their entire bodies. It is amazing that so many muscles, veins and nerves can exist in such a slender leg! If birds' legs were thicker and relatively more bulky, it would be more difficult for them to fly.

Almost all birds sleep on one leg. This does not upset their balance since their body weight is concentrated on this one leg. Allah has created birds with the features that enable them to maintain such a delicate balance.

The eyes of water fowl have been created for clear underwater vision. While we can't keep our eyes open underwater for even 45 seconds, water birds can easily catch insects and molluscs in water as they plunge their heads into it. Since this is the only way for them to feed themselves, they must have clear vision underwater. For this reason, Allah has created a special structure in their eyes, which permits seeing underwater.[/size][/font][/font]

Done--
While I debate the origin of these things, I will say that nature is a wonderous thing. If you're into biology.


Interesting stance. Though I'd disagree.

Evolution to me, holds these wonders in an unreligious context. It still makes sense and doesn't diminish the wonderous nature of, well, nature.


Like what? Is it that you cannot explain them, or that you think it's too wonderous for the universe to conjure up by itself?

I appreciate your response!

Think about insects. They work in a fashion that is set for them from birth. They have innate features that they themselves did not place, and their lives have a certain meaning and purpose to fulfill. Humans (especially when still babies) can attest to innate "mechanisms" that they themselves had no control over, but was given to them by "nature".

About the "regulate" thing, if we were missing most if not all species of insects, this earth would be in turmoil. This is coming from someone who isn't much of an activist of "being green". "Nature" has its way of keeping the world in order. In Islamic terms (since I used Islam as my example), your perspective would be considered a "failure in seeing Allah's (God's) role in these miraculous occurrences that chance itself could not produce, but rather the all-knowing intelligent planner and creator". Again, the Islamic idea behind these things is so that one can take note of the miraculous events that nature itself could not create, but rather a miracle would be needed to sustain it.

 

[Sovieto]

You know, there's that one joke:

Me and my brother know EVERYTHING in the world, ask me anything and we'll know the answer.

[question here]

That one my brother knows! haha

Religion is kind of like that. It's like saying, hey, I don't know the answer, but I totally know someone who DOES. You know, kind of like how people say "I know this guy who knows a guy who knows a guy that knows Brittney Spears.." You can't disprove that because you couldn't possibly go through all their friends, then their friends friends, and so on, it's just unrealistic to do, so you have to 'accept' it. Religion is no different.

 

[RPGMasterTurk91]

We've all seen **** or been through ****. That is what convinced me there was no God at a very young age, accepting reality is better in my view than putting Jesus between it and myself as a block for the weak.

And yes I mean that. Faith is for the weak, those who can't accept or cope with reality or are scared of trying to. The whole concept of "heaven" is an example of this.

Alright, here's the jist of the general and more popular atheistic beliefs in my own words, though I myself am not an atheist:

Religion is used so that people can cope and manage with their lives; the religion seeks to psychologically create roadblocks in the brain that make coping with reality easier by throwing in false concepts like "heaven" and "hell". For example, if a loved one dies, relatives of that loved one may be told that "he or she is in heaven right now" in order that that person can manage life easier and as soon as possible. Religion was made by man, God does not exist, this universe was created by the big bang and a bunch of random events stitched together what we call "life"; when we die, the feeling is similar to the feeling before our parents (who made us)-- decided to make us, and we simply become one with the earth and become dirt, as all organisms have. The religious texts add a bonus income of money and influence (such as power) and make the religion more believable. In the end, a religious/spiritual experience is nothing but a psychological experience in the frontal lobe of the brain and nothing more; Finally, religion is fear of the unknown and is used to control the masses and direct them to a certain cause. All followers of religion are conformists and have been brainwashed since in most cases birth and are too stubborn to accept scientific evidence alone.

 

[Brawny]

We've all seen **** or been through ****. That is what convinced me there was no God at a very young age, accepting reality is better in my view than putting Jesus between it and myself as a block for the weak.

And yes I mean that. Faith is for the weak, those who can't accept or cope with reality or are scared of trying to. The whole concept of "heaven" is an example of this.

He meant it the other way around; he's seen things that science can't explain.

 

[Bodine]

My stepmother was diagnosed with beast cancer. After that one time at church when everyone huddled around her and prayed the doctors were baffled. I've seen Mr. Caddly see again. And a member at our church told me a few things about me that I've never told anyone and he kept me from heading into a lot of trouble. I believe theres a God. But sometimes I'm guilty of doubting,

 

[Twilight Hero]

My dad told me a story of when he was a young man. He said he was working on a bridge above a huge river and he slipped off. He saw his life flash before his eyes. Then someone or something grabbed him and pulled him back up. He looked around to thank the person, but no one was there. It seems that God was not done with him. :] What a great story.

 

[Sovieto]

My dad told me a story of when he was a young man. He said he was working on a bridge above a huge river and he slipped off. He saw his life flash before his eyes. Then someone or something grabbed him and pulled him back up. He looked around to thank the person, but no one was there. It seems that God was not done with him. :] What a great story.

Or he was on acid.

 

[RPGMasterTurk91]

Ahh here's the one from Islamcan regarding ants! Very well put, in my opinion. Remember, this is the Islamic viewpoint:

Examining the movement of the ant is thought provoking. It moves its infinitesimal legs in a sequential and extremely organised manner knowing perfectly which leg should take the first step and which the next. It moves very rapidly without faltering.

The Ant lifts crumbs much bigger than its body. It carries them to its nest with heart and soul. It travels distances that are very long in comparison to its tiny body. On featureless land, with no guide at its service, it can easily find its nest. Despite the entrance of the nest being too small even for us to find, it is not confused and finds it no matter where it is.

When one sees in the garden some ants, lined up one after the other, ardently toiling to carry food to their nest, one cannot stop wondering what kind of purpose these tiny living beings might have in working so hard. Then one realises that not only does the ant carry food for itself, but also for other members of its colony, for the queen ant and baby ants. How such a tiny ant, which does not even have a developed brain, knows diligence, discipline and self-sacrifice is a point on which one needs to reflect. After pondering these facts, one reaches the following conclusion: ants, like all other living beings, act by the inspiration of Allah and obey His commands alone.

 

[Squall7]

I'll hide my response for the sake of keeping the thread tidy

Spoiler

I appreciate your response!

Think about insects. They work in a fashion that is set for them from birth. They have innate features that they themselves did not place, and their lives have a certain meaning and purpose to fulfill. Humans (especially when still babies) can attest to innate "mechanisms" that they themselves had no control over, but was given to them by "nature".

I would argue that it was more of a compulsion than a purpose though. Natural instincts also can be explain through evolution: those that don't have a natural instinct to suckle for sustainence are less likely to survive, thus those that do survive are likely to pass on that genetic trait.

About the "regulate" thing, if we were missing most if not all species of insects, this earth would be in turmoil. This is coming from someone who isn't much of an activist of "being green". "Nature" has its way of keeping the world in order. In Islamic terms (since I used Islam as my example), your perspective would be considered a "failure in seeing Allah's (God's) role in these miraculous occurrences that chance itself could not produce, but rather the all-knowing intelligent planner and creator". Again, the Islamic idea behind these things is so that one can take note of the miraculous events that nature itself could not create, but rather a miracle would be needed to sustain it.

Fair enough. Though the world being in turmoil would be debatable. The world wouldn't remain the same (obviously), but the state of turmoil would be subjective. For our perspective, it could be devestating. From another perspective, it's simply change.

My stepmother was diagnosed with beast cancer. After that one time at church when everyone huddled around her and prayed the doctors were baffled. I've seen Mr. Caddly see again. And a member at our church told me a few things about me that I've never told anyone and he kept me from heading into a lot of trouble. I believe theres a God. But sometimes I'm guilty of doubting,

Ah, okay.

While you are entitled to your opinion, I would say that there are other explanations. Your stepmother may have got better whether you prayed for her or not, and the fact that you did made you feel like your loyalty was rewarded. People's eyesight can sometimes get better (although pyschosomatic (sp?) factors could have been involved), people telling you things about yourself can be a form of cold-reading.

Perhaps I'm a pessemist. But what of (for example) Islamic people that miraculously get better? Surely only one God exists, and that God (whether it be the Christian God or Allah) would only help out those deemed worthy, and therefore those that believe in him.

Religion is used so that people can cope and manage with their lives;

That's one interpretation, but not the only one. For example, The Pope does not really need God in the same way a recovering drug addict will.

the religion seeks to psychologically create roadblocks in the brain that make coping with reality easier by throwing in false concepts like "heaven" and "hell".

Positive and negative reinforcement is seen throughout all animals.

For example, if a loved one dies, relatives of that loved one may be told that "he or she is in heaven right now" in order that that person can manage life easier and as soon as possible.

It can be seen as a form of coping mechanism. It can also be seen as a promise of good things happening to good people, which enables those that don't understand why we have social rules, to act in a positive way towards others (which is incidentally seen in the animal kingdom anyway).

Religion was made by man, God does not exist, this universe was created by the big bang and a bunch of random events stitched together what we call "life";

The Big Bang is the opening theory to a group of more detailed theories, such as the big crunch and M-theory.

when we die, the feeling is similar to the feeling before our parents (who made us)-- decided to make us, and we simply become one with the earth and become dirt, as all organisms have.

Not sure about the 'feeling' bit, but the particles and molecules will be broken down and go back into the Earth.

The religious texts add a bonus income of money and influence (such as power) and make the religion more believable.

This is definately true. While atheists see this as a negative, I'm sure people of those religions will see this as a positive.

In the end, a religious/spiritual experience is nothing but a psychological experience in the frontal lobe of the brain and nothing more;

True. Though whether it's in the frontal lobe, or somewhere else in the brain is also possible.

Finally, religion is fear of the unknown and is used to control the masses and direct them to a certain cause. All followers of religion are conformists and have been brainwashed since in most cases birth and are too stubborn to accept scientific evidence alone.

Brainwashed - no. that implies a sudden change in the way people think. Indocrination - yes. In general, there's a reason why religions are subject to geography, and that a Christian parent is likely to produce a Christian child.

As for the stubbornness, that's debatable. Brawny for example believes in the science aspects such as evolution. Others reject evolution outright, and therefore reject scientific proof and therefore see a conspiracy against religion.

Ahhhh. Too much writing... Brain about to explode!

 

[LeWaffles]

You know, there's that one joke:

Me and my brother know EVERYTHING in the world, ask me anything and we'll know the answer.

[question here]

That one my brother knows! haha

Religion is kind of like that. It's like saying, hey, I don't know the answer, but I totally know someone who DOES. You know, kind of like how people say "I know this guy who knows a guy who knows a guy that knows Brittney Spears.." You can't disprove that because you couldn't possibly go through all their friends, then their friends friends, and so on, it's just unrealistic to do, so you have to 'accept' it. Religion is no different.

Its not about proving or disproving anything, its about feeling and believing in something. You never feel like there is something bigger than what you can see and observe? We barely know anything of our own galaxy, to me its crazy to completely rule out any religion based on what we know, because what we know very little. IMO

 

[RPGMasterTurk91]

I'll hide my response for the sake of keeping the thread tidy

Spoiler

I would argue that it was more of a compulsion than a purpose though. Natural instincts also can be explain through evolution: those that don't have a natural instinct to suckle for sustainence are less likely to survive, thus those that do survive are likely to pass on that genetic trait.


Fair enough. Though the world being in turmoil would be debatable. The world wouldn't remain the same (obviously), but the state of turmoil would be subjective. For our perspective, it could be devestating. From another perspective, it's simply change.


Ah, okay.

While you are entitled to your opinion, I would say that there are other explanations. Your stepmother may have got better whether you prayed for her or not, and the fact that you did made you feel like your loyalty was rewarded. People's eyesight can sometimes get better (although pyschosomatic (sp?) factors could have been involved), people telling you things about yourself can be a form of cold-reading.

Perhaps I'm a pessemist. But what of (for example) Islamic people that miraculously get better? Surely only one God exists, and that God (whether it be the Christian God or Allah) would only help out those deemed worthy, and therefore those that believe in him.


That's one interpretation, but not the only one. For example, The Pope does not really need God in the same way a recovering drug addict will.


Positive and negative reinforcement is seen throughout all animals.


It can be seen as a form of coping mechanism. It can also be seen as a promise of good things happening to good people, which enables those that don't understand why we have social rules, to act in a positive way towards others (which is incidentally seen in the animal kingdom anyway).


The Big Bang is the opening theory to a group of more detailed theories, such as the big crunch and M-theory.


Not sure about the 'feeling' bit, but the particles and molecules will be broken down and go back into the Earth.


This is definately true. While atheists see this as a negative, I'm sure people of those religions will see this as a positive.


True. Though whether it's in the frontal lobe, or somewhere else in the brain is also possible.


Brainwashed - no. that implies a sudden change in the way people think. Indocrination - yes. In general, there's a reason why religions are subject to geography, and that a Christian parent is likely to produce a Christian child.

As for the stubbornness, that's debatable. Brawny for example believes in the science aspects such as evolution. Others reject evolution outright, and therefore reject scientific proof and therefore see a conspiracy against religion.

Ahhhh. Too much writing... Brain about to explode!

Thanks for your response, but I'm going to have to edit this post later because I don't have time to respond to it just yet! =P

 

[Squall7]

I'm not taking a stab at anyone here but scientifically you can never rule out anything because nothing can ever be proven or disproven.

Science is based upon proving things. Gravity is a proven thing. Take an object, hold it a metre above the floor and let go. The object will fall to the floor. Repeat until one admits in the existence of gravity.

What you're desribing is not science, but philosophy. In a Baudrillard or Descartes way, you are correct. However, in a Newtonian sense, the three laws of motion are true, and (arguably) infinitely testable.

Thanks for your response, but I'm going to have to edit this post later because I don't have time to respond to it just yet!

Fair enough. Looking forward to more discussion.

 

[Brawny]

The only thing you can prove by that is that things usually fall toward the Earth.

It does not prove the existence of gravity. I could just say that God feels like making it go to the center and tomorrow could make it go toward the sky.

 

[Squall7]

The only thing you can prove by that is that things usually fall toward the Earth.

It does not prove the existence of gravity. I could just say that God feels like making it go to the center and tomorrow could make it go toward the sky.

Objects are subject to a force that makes them fall towards large masses. Whether you say God did it or not, gravity is still there. The only debate is whether God created gravity or whether it's a natural thing. You could rename it, but in effect it will still be the same.