is religion real ?

[Brawny]

Yes, but we know the car had a creator: us, people.

The "who" is already answered.

The only indication (admittedly, arguably) that there is a "who" in the origin of man is the presumption of a "why".

And why is us having a purpose automatically known to be false?

 

[Napalmbrain]

Yes, but we know the car had a creator: us, people.

The "who" is already answered.

The only indication (admittedly, arguably) that there is a "who" in the origin of man is the presumption of a "why".

We pressume there is a purpose to our lives, and so there must be a person to create us. Without a purpose, would there need to be a creator?

That's not much of an argument. Either we have as purpose, presumably implying a creator, or we have no purpose, which implies nothing about the existence of a creator.

 

[Squall7]

And why is us having a purpose automatically known to be false?

a, I'm not saying that it's automatically false. All I'm saying is the question entirely need not exist at all.
b, If we were to have a purpose, it would mean that there would be a problem or situation we were designed to fix in some way. Why would a creator with infinite power and control, need to create us in order to fix something?
c, A purpose undercuts the idea of freedom. If we were designed to do something, giving us free will would be illogical. However, the doctrine of religion is based upon free will.

That's not much of an argument. Either we have a purpose, presumably implying a creator, or we have no purpose, which implies nothing about the existence of a creator.

If we were created without purpose, we were created without reason. Since reasoning (even if faulty) is the basis for a belief, being created without a purpose by a 'being', is being created without motive. It's illogical to assume there's anything without a motive, a cause and effect so to speak.

 

[LevesqueIsKing]

Why, if we have a creator, do we have to have a purpose? Ants in an ant farm don't have a purpose, they're just fun to watch.

 

[Brawny]

Why, if we have a creator, do we have to have a purpose? Ants in an ant farm don't have a purpose, they're just fun to watch.

Uhm.

1. You didn't create the ants.
2. Fun to watch is a purpose.

 

[Sovieto]

Why, if we have a creator, do we have to have a purpose? Ants in an ant farm don't have a purpose, they're just fun to watch.

There you go, entertainment.


By the way, I'm sure it's really re-assuring to the starving children in North Korea eating grass and not knowing anything but work and pain, that they are indeed going to Hell, no matter their actions.

 

[Brawny]

a, I'm not saying that it's automatically false. All I'm saying is the question entirely need not exist at all.
b, If we were to have a purpose, it would mean that there would be a problem or situation we were designed to fix in some way. Why would a creator with infinite power and control, need to create us in order to fix something?
c, A purpose undercuts the idea of freedom. If we were designed to do something, giving us free will would be illogical. However, the doctrine of religion is based upon free will.

A. Okay, I suppose.
B. Why does a purpose imply fixing something? The ant farm case, is pure entertainment. I believe that God simply wanted something to have a relationship with. Which leads to:
C. If this is in fact the purpose, you have to give the creation free will for it to be meaningful. The point of a relationship is that the other WANTS to be with you, you didn't force her into it.

 

[Squall7]

A. Okay, I suppose.
B. Why does a purpose imply fixing something? The ant farm case, is pure entertainment. I believe that God simply wanted something to have a relationship with.

Isn't the purpose of entertainment to help time pass? While not strictly 'fixing', the changing of something is what fixing is, for something to be fixed, it has to fulfil it's purpose. If the purpose of something is to pass the time, then entertainment in that instance is a 'fix'. Besides, why assume that God needs entertainment? Surely a perfect God would not need entertainment, no need for time to pass, no overall desire to see humans playing out there existence (or ants for that matter). God doesn't get lonely, that is a symptom of being human (and yes, I mean symptom, as in the need for affiliation). Loneliness comes from our own faults. If one is perfect, one would not desire another.

Which leads to:
C. If this is in fact the purpose, you have to give the creation free will for it to be meaningful. The point of a relationship is that the other WANTS to be with you, you didn't force her into it.

It's not the point of a relationship. Its part of what we desire in a relationship. A relationship is simply the changing of each other in some way (an incredibly common one, is the changing of someone from unhappy to happy).

 

[Bodine]

Well I'm a christian, but I also understand why people doubt the existence of God or othee gods. I have doubts, often. More often than most people who call themselves a christian. But I am nonetheless.

 

[Squall7]

Well I'm a christian, but I also understand why people doubt the existence of God or othee gods. I have doubts, often. More often than most people who call themselves a christian. But I am nonetheless.

Interesting. Why is it that you (personally) feel drawn back to God?

I'm genuinely interested, rather than making a point.

 

[Brawny]

Well I'm a christian, but I also understand why people doubt the existence of God or othee gods. I have doubts, often. More often than most people who call themselves a christian. But I am nonetheless.

This.

Especially when I'm told that I'm supposed to love God more than any other.
There is one I love, and I can't imagine ever having that same feeling with a spirit.

 

[RPGMasterTurk91]

There you go, entertainment.


By the way, I'm sure it's really re-assuring to the starving children in North Korea eating grass and not knowing anything but work and pain, that they are indeed going to Hell, no matter their actions.

It's funny how animals, insects, and anything living know their purpose in life, but we as humans, the most intelligent life forms this planet has yet to see, don't know our purpose in life, the true purpose of life. Isn't it sad, too?

All lifeforms work in unison which overall "regulates" the earth in every sense of the word. For someone who believes in God and has some sense of faith, that person may look at "an ant farm" from a different perspective than an atheist. Ants--which can carry up to 20 something times their weight, are interpreted by some as "a miracle from God". Birds being able to flap their wings and effortlessly lift their bodies into the air can similarly be viewed as "a miracle by God". These things, according to this same viewpoint, are done by God so that they can see it and accept his existence.

Here is an Islamic viewpoint on "birds" I found from Islamcan (an Islamic web site). It first gives a verse from the Koran, then explains. Keep in mind that the verse itself may not make sense when read alone, so please keep an open mind about it.

Allah says in the Holy Quran:

"Do they not see the birds suspended in mid-air up in the sky? Nothing holds them there except Allah. There are certainly Signs in that for people who have faith." (Surat an-Nahl: 79)

A bird uses great energy when it takes flight because it has to lift all its body with its tiny wings. Yet, once it is up in the air, Allah has made it easy for it to remain aloft without expending too much effort. Birds can fly for a long time by allowing themselves to rely on the wind. This way, they hardly tire since they consume very little energy. When the effect produced by the wind diminishes, they begin to flap their wings again. By means of this feature Allah has given birds, they can cover very long distances and migrate to remote destinations.

It is interesting that birds' legs, so slender and little in comparison to their bodies, can carry their entire bodies. It is amazing that so many muscles, veins and nerves can exist in such a slender leg! If birds' legs were thicker and relatively more bulky, it would be more difficult for them to fly.

Almost all birds sleep on one leg. This does not upset their balance since their body weight is concentrated on this one leg. Allah has created birds with the features that enable them to maintain such a delicate balance.

The eyes of water fowl have been created for clear underwater vision. While we can't keep our eyes open underwater for even 45 seconds, water birds can easily catch insects and molluscs in water as they plunge their heads into it. Since this is the only way for them to feed themselves, they must have clear vision underwater. For this reason, Allah has created a special structure in their eyes, which permits seeing underwater.

Done--

Now I know some people will bring up "why does the water fowl have to eat insects? Why does it have to need the proper eyes to eat, why can't it just be made simple for it? Why does "Allah" have to make them need this "underwater vision" in the first place?

Simple. The message is being redirected again: it is to show the miracles behind the features of living things to the people of faith, in Islamic terms. It is "one of the many signs of Allah".

 

[Bodine]

Interesting. Why is it that you (personally) feel drawn back to God?

I'm genuinely interested, rather than making a point.

I wouldn't be a Christian still if I haven't seen some things with my own eyes.

 

[LevesqueIsKing]

Like what?

 

[Squall7]

It's funny how animals, insects, and anything living know their purpose in life, but we as humans, the most intelligent life forms this planet has yet to see, don't know our purpose in life, the true purpose of life. Isn't it sad, too?

Err, what do you mean by that? How do you know that animals know their 'purpose'? How do you know they have a 'purpose' as such?

All lifeforms work in unison which overall "regulates" the earth in every sense of the word.

Err, regulate it in what way? Animals have adapted to be suited to a specific environment, and natural factors make sure that no species is too dominant (outside of human interference that is). Such processes as the preditor/prey dynamic, in which a preditor needs prey, so without enough prey, the preditor would die, and with fewer preditors, the prey would thrive, allowing more foor for the preditor.

For someone who believes in God and has some sense of faith, that person may look at "an ant farm" from a different perspective than an atheist. Ants--which can carry up to 20 something times their weight, are interpreted by some as "a miracle from God". Birds being able to flap their wings and effortlessly lift their bodies into the air can similarly be viewed as "a miracle by God". These things, according to this same viewpoint, are done by God so that they can see it and accept his existence.

Interesting view. Kinda has to start with the belief in God for it to work, so it's not 'proving God' per se. Another thing is, is that this view is still semi-compatible with atheistic views, instead of seeing miracles, we simply appreciate the wonder of nature itself, such as the view I discussed about Eistein.

Here is an Islamic viewpoint on "birds" I found from Islamcan (an Islamic web site). It first gives a verse from the Koran, then explains. Keep in mind that the verse itself may not make sense when read alone, so please keep an open mind about it.

Allah says in the Holy Quran:

"Do they not see the birds suspended in mid-air up in the sky? Nothing holds them there except Allah. There are certainly Signs in that for people who have faith." (Surat an-Nahl: 79)

Presumably by Allah, you mean the process which were created by Allah (at least in an Islamic perspective). Though I don't think suspended is quite the right word for a bird in flight (suspended denotes, at least in English, that it is static in it's position, while birds are in fact moving forwards - except animals like humming birds, but that's slightly different, due to the amount of flapping of the wings).

A bird uses great energy when it takes flight because it has to lift all its body with its tiny wings. Yet, once it is up in the air, Allah has made it easy for it to remain aloft without expending too much effort. Birds can fly for a long time by allowing themselves to rely on the wind. This way, they hardly tire since they consume very little energy. When the effect produced by the wind diminishes, they begin to flap their wings again. By means of this feature Allah has given birds, they can cover very long distances and migrate to remote destinations.

It is interesting that birds' legs, so slender and little in comparison to their bodies, can carry their entire bodies. It is amazing that so many muscles, veins and nerves can exist in such a slender leg! If birds' legs were thicker and relatively more bulky, it would be more difficult for them to fly.

Almost all birds sleep on one leg. This does not upset their balance since their body weight is concentrated on this one leg. Allah has created birds with the features that enable them to maintain such a delicate balance.

The eyes of water fowl have been created for clear underwater vision. While we can't keep our eyes open underwater for even 45 seconds, water birds can easily catch insects and molluscs in water as they plunge their heads into it. Since this is the only way for them to feed themselves, they must have clear vision underwater. For this reason, Allah has created a special structure in their eyes, which permits seeing underwater.

Done--

While I debate the origin of these things, I will say that nature is a wonderous thing. If you're into biology.

Now I know some people will bring up "why does the water fowl have to eat insects? Why does it have to need the proper eyes to eat, why can't it just be made simple for it? Why does "Allah" have to make them need this "underwater vision" in the first place?

Simple. The message is being redirected again: it is to show the miracles behind the features of living things to the people of faith, in Islamic terms. It is "one of the many signs of Allah".

Interesting stance. Though I'd disagree.

Evolution to me, holds these wonders in an unreligious context. It still makes sense and doesn't diminish the wonderous nature of, well, nature.

I wouldn't be a Christian still if I haven't seen some things with my own eyes.

Like what? Is it that you cannot explain them, or that you think it's too wonderous for the universe to conjure up by itself?