Does God exist?

[Napalmbrain]

Let me try a slightly different approach.. instead of God, let's invent some hypothetical omniscient being who we'll call "Mr. X", who is not inherently good or evil, but he cannot lie. Now, like before, you can pick the apple or the orange. Since Mr. X knows everything, he knows you'll pick the orange. He does not tell you that, and he does not try to influence your choice in any way, but he does put his prediction in a sealed envelope (again, he does not lie, so he will write that you'll pick the orange). Now, there are two outcomes: either you pick the orange and Mr. X is proven correct, or you pick the apple and Mr. X is wrong. But Mr. X cannot be wrong, because he is omniscient. Therefore, there is actually only one possible outcome, you have to pick the orange otherwise there would be a paradox. And that's the point I'm trying to make: if your choice only has one possible outcome, then it's not really a "choice", is it? It's just going through the motions until you fulfill your inevitable destiny. Therefore, Mr. X's omniscience negates the existence of free will.

 

[DG~X]

how does that make any sense? to know the future means the future is preset, meaning no free will. but yet we have free will, meaning its impossible to know the future. so either it's impossible to have free will, or its impossible to know the future.

take the movie Next for instance(it about a guy that can see up to 2 minutes into his own future). the very first lines in the movie are: 'It's impossible to know the future, because every time you look at it, it changes because you looked at it.'
throughout the movie he sees things in his future but then chooses to either let that future happen or he'll prove it wrong by doing something different.

in a way, it's exactly what we're arguing about. if you know the future then there's no free will, but if there is free will then you can prove your future wrong by doing something to alter it. if god knows the future but then we do something to change it, then we just proved god wrong. but god can't be wrong because he's god. its an impossibility, a paradox

That made my head hurt, Question: If its the future how could it be the present?

Yes it is impossible for us to tell the future for now, but for god it isnt.IMO of coarce. If we do something to change it he already knew that was going to happen. Since he knows the future. But if we knew the future and had that power to do that, we can change it giving us free will but we dont have that power.(that is for now).

 

[Shadow*91]

@dg: you're not making sense and contradicting yourself at the same time

@napalm: good example

 

[Shadowking]

Let me see if I've got this straight.

Napalm is saying that if God knows what choices you're going to make, it must be preset and therefore we don't have free will. The theists are saying that while God knows what decision you are going to make, it's not a decision he has made for you and therefore it IS free will, God just knew how you were going to exercise said free will before you did. Is that about right?

 

[Shadow*91]

yeah that's right.
sorta contradicts itself right?

 

[Bio]

Let me see if I've got this straight.

Napalm is saying that if God knows what choices you're going to make, it must be preset and therefore we don't have free will. The theists are saying that while God knows what decision you are going to make, it's not a decision he has made for you and therefore it IS free will, God just knew how you were going to exercise said free will before you did. Is that about right?

Generally speaking, that's what I have gotten out of it so far in following the discussion.

 

[Shadowking]

yeah that's right.
sorta contradicts itself right?

Both sides make sense to me actually. When Napalm used the example with Mr X his side made a whole lot more sense...but what the theists are saying makes sense to me as well because they aren't claiming God DECIDES your future just that he KNOWS it. It's more like a magic trick than a contradiction.

Granted it doesn't make me believe in God even if the theists are right on that particular point, but I'm not too sure that it disproves anything either.

 

[RPGMasterTurk91]

Let me see if I've got this straight.

Napalm is saying that if God knows what choices you're going to make, it must be preset and therefore we don't have free will. The theists are saying that while God knows what decision you are going to make, it's not a decision he has made for you and therefore it IS free will, God just knew how you were going to exercise said free will before you did. Is that about right?

Yes, that is the condensed version and the gist of our discussion, well put.

You have your free will, and God knows what you will do with it before you do, and will know the outcome of your entire life. This by no means charges that your future was preset (and thus unchangeable by God, disqualifying Him from being Omniscient if he existed in the first place) just because it (your future) is already known, God knows what your free will and life experiences will lead you to (you have control over your free will...it's implied), and may aid you in the present time which will help to form the 'bigger future', which is already known by God. Thus having free will does not make omniscience an impossibility and is not a paradox at all. The concept of being omniscient and omnipotent seems 'magical' in itself, but it is true that there is none like God and God is nothing like the creation, according to the theistic point of view, and that such traits belong to the creator of ALL things, and Him alone.

 

[Bio]

So I'm going to try and put what you just said, Turk, into simpler terms:

God knows the future, and we are given free will to shape our future as we see fit. Whatever we do will be known by God before it happens, but how our future is written is up to us.

Would that be a fair summary? Seeing as what I said sounds as though I re-iterated what S.S. said (who you responded to), it might indicate that what I said is on track.

 

[RPGMasterTurk91]

So I'm going to try and put what you just said, Turk, into simpler terms:

God knows the future, and we are given free will to shape our future as we see fit. Whatever we do will be known by God before it happens, but how our future is written is up to us.

Would that be a fair summary? Seeing as what I said sounds as though I re-iterated what S.S. said (who you responded to), it might indicate that what I said is on track.

For the most part, it is a proper way to sum up what I have been saying. Only, we cannot guarantee our future, only God can. It doesn't always work around 'how we see fit', those were the little details and circumstances I talked about earlier, mostly things and situations we don't have any control over and are forced to face. As the 'mess-ups' or 'opportunities' occur (depending on the situation), one still has the free will to react to it in his or her way.

Thanks for the input, Bio. I feel at peace when reading something from you, not because you are taking a neutral position, but rather you write brief, easy-to-follow paragraphs. I like your style; my style differs in that I type as much as I would talk; my typing is more realistically inclined (that is, sounds more like someone just speaking it (I guess), whereas yours is short and to the point and is easy to follow.

 

[Napalmbrain]

I still don't feel like my question has been answered though: How can a choice with only one possible outcome really be a "choice"?

 

[ssbb_lover]

I still don't feel like my question has been answered though: How can a choice with only one possible outcome really be a "choice"?

I believe this is what Turk feels is "flawed logic" as he stated before, because humans have free will and we do actually have a choice, it's just that God knows what that choice is going to be. Or at least I think that's what he would say, but I'm with you here (as usual), Kyle.

Here's another example. Say a magician lures you in to play a game, and the purpose of this game is for you to pick one of three objects. Assume that somehow it is rigged so that the magician knows exactly what you're going to pick every single time. What would your impressions be walking away from the man who could "guess" (know) your every move? I know for myself, it would be something along the lines of, "I never stood a chance. No matter what object I chose, he already had anticipated it." Another thought that might comes to mind is the fact that it couldn't be real, it's just not possible that he could figure it out 100 times out of 100 naturally, without it being rigged.

For me, this not only has "no choice" stamped over it, but also that we instinctively doubt such abilities. From a theist's point of view, one could say we do so because we are incredulous of God's power, but I can more easily say the most logical thing: it's not possible and there's no proof to say it is (because there's no proof of some omniscient God, regardless of omnipotence).

Hopefully that contributes towards the argument somewhat.

 

[RPGMasterTurk91]

I still don't feel like my question has been answered though: How can a choice with only one possible outcome really be a "choice"?

I believe this is what Turk feels is "flawed logic" as he stated before, because humans have free will and we do actually have a choice, it's just that God knows what that choice is going to be. Or at least I think that's what he would say, but I'm with you here (as usual), Kyle.

Here's another example. Say a magician lures you in to play a game, and the purpose of this game is for you to pick one of three objects. Assume that somehow it is rigged so that the magician knows exactly what you're going to pick every single time. What would your impressions be walking away from the man who could "guess" (know) your every move? I know for myself, it would be something along the lines of, "I never stood a chance. No matter what object I chose, he already had anticipated it." Another thought that might comes to mind is the fact that it couldn't be real, it's just not possible that he could figure it out 100 times out of 100 naturally, without it being rigged.

For me, this not only has "no choice" stamped over it, but also that we instinctively doubt such abilities. From a theist's point of view, one could say we do so because we are incredulous of God's power, but I can more easily say the most logical thing: it's not possible and there's no proof to say it is (because there's no proof of some omniscient God, regardless of omnipotence).

Hopefully that contributes towards the argument somewhat.

At this point, I fully realize that the main argument is that omniscience cannot exist when free will does, or a paradox (impossibility) will ensue. Does anyone else feel like explaining that there is actually logic in the existence of the two? I'm going to end up repeating myself, though most of the time I don't mind it. Just want to see other theists' point of views...I'm Muslim, in case anyone didn't figure that out already.

Keep in mind that omniscience only belongs to God alone, no creation of His could actually know for sure everything, there will never, has never, and can never be an omniscient living being. The quality belongs to the single God alone.

 

[Shadowking]

That's just it though Napalm, there isn't only one possible outcome. You make the decision for yourself. If God created you, he knows how you operate and would be able to figure out which decision you are going to make. He has absolutely no influence. Let's go back to your example of Mr X. He wrote down orange on the piece of paper if I remember correctly. But you don't have any idea what he wrote down so you are still making the decision between the two, he just knows that you're going to choose the orange.

I understand your point as well, as I have said, this just isn't a convincing point for either side of the coin.

 

[wasa]

if God can make it to a wii chat forum well then he surely exist. :yesnod: