Does God exist?

[AndThen?]

I know God exists; I have come to the conclusion via empirical experience and personal revelation. Oddly enough, chemistry alone strengthens my convictions of His existence. And the fact that the Jews are still around after all these years should at least be sufficient for anyone inquiring as to whether the Abrahamic God exists.

In what way is that sufficient proof of God's existence? The Australian Aborigines have been around for at least 40,000 years, does that make their Dreamtime stories real?

Holla.

For me, chemistry (and science in general) has done nothing to convince me there is a God. In fact, it's made me less inclined to believe, because I've learned to look at things more sceptically, and with the benefit of knowledge.

I completely agree with you. In fact furthering my studies into astrophysics during my last semester of school kind of opened my eyes to the scientific universe, which doesn't seem particularly compatible with the God theory. All of it was just so interesting... I mean, being able to scientifically deduce the age of the universe and all... It made me believe that religion often doesn't add another dimension to one's life, it rather holds people back from the understanding of the world around them.

 

[RPGMasterTurk91]

basically what you said right there is that only a god can do impossible things. that's your entire post in one sentence.

No, but God can do things that are not humanly possible. No human being or any other living creature can be omniscient, but God can be, and is. Only one omnipotent being out there, too, and that's God. Omniscience and free will are compatible with one another, and the only one who is truly omniscient is God Himself. Omnipotence is also impossible to attain, but is a quality that only God has. Omnipotence is impossible, in your context, but is possible (and is the case) for God.

 

[navarre]

I know God exists; I have come to the conclusion via empirical experience and personal revelation. Oddly enough, chemistry alone strengthens my convictions of His existence. And the fact that the Jews are still around after all these years should at least be sufficient for anyone inquiring as to whether the Abrahamic God exists.

In what way is that sufficient proof of God's existence? The Australian Aborigines have been around for at least 40,000 years, does that make their Dreamtime stories real?

For me, chemistry (and science in general) has done nothing to convince me there is a God. In fact, it's made me less inclined to believe, because I've learned to look at things more sceptically, and with the benefit of knowledge.

The Jews have been massacred and have suffered pogroms ever since their foundations. Christian Europe, Muslim Arabia, Russia, South America, Nazi Germany... I find the fact that they still around after attempts at their extermination by just about every culture everywhere convincing.

Chemistry makes me certain about God; the atoms and their properties must've been designed. Physics, expecially astronomy, does cast doubts into one's mind; faith is a rollercoaster, and doubts are just a necessary part of it.

 

[Bio]

Science is one of my favorite subjects, but it never changed my beliefs, though. I just figured this world was always more expansive and intricate than I would have previously imagined anyway. It seems to me that we are bound to find a greater complexity and structure to our universe, but that supreme order of things in itself makes me feel that as though it didn't simply exist by chance. The more systematic and orderly the world feels, the more I marvel at it and wonder if there was a mind at work that originally made it so.

 

[RPGMasterTurk91]

I know God exists; I have come to the conclusion via empirical experience and personal revelation. Oddly enough, chemistry alone strengthens my convictions of His existence. And the fact that the Jews are still around after all these years should at least be sufficient for anyone inquiring as to whether the Abrahamic God exists.

In what way is that sufficient proof of God's existence? The Australian Aborigines have been around for at least 40,000 years, does that make their Dreamtime stories real?

For me, chemistry (and science in general) has done nothing to convince me there is a God. In fact, it's made me less inclined to believe, because I've learned to look at things more sceptically, and with the benefit of knowledge.

The Jews have been massacred and have suffered pogroms ever since their foundations. Christian Europe, Muslim Arabia, Russia, South America, Nazi Germany... I find the fact that they still around after attempts at their extermination by just about every culture everywhere convincing.

Chemistry makes me certain about God; the atoms and their properties must've been designed. Physics, expecially astronomy, does cast doubts into one's mind; faith is a rollercoaster, and doubts are just a necessary part of it.

Muslim Arabia, Muslim Spain (Spain was Muslim for over 800 years!), and the Ottoman Empire were the ONLY places Jews lived in peace and harmony. I'm not saying that they faced absolutely no persecution, just as we cannot say that Jews have never persecuted others before, but they certainly had the most freedoms and best treatment under Islamic empires and Shari'a Law. Most rabbis will surprisingly tell you the truth in this matter.

However, I agree with your statement that by studying chemistry and science overall (through viewing such intricate design in nature) make me believe and strengthen my belief in God rather than the other way around, as well.

 

[Napalmbrain]

basically what you said right there is that only a god can do impossible things. that's your entire post in one sentence.

No, but God can do things that are not humanly possible. No human being or any other living creature can be omniscient, but God can be, and is. Only one omnipotent being out there, too, and that's God. Omniscience and free will are compatible with one another, and the only one who is truly omniscient is God Himself. Omnipotence is also impossible to attain, but is a quality that only God has. Omnipotence is impossible, in your context, but is possible (and is the case) for God.

Once again I ask- how do you know? While it's true that natural beings cannot be omniscient, there is no reason to assume that any creator can be omniscient either, or that there is only one deity capable of omniscience.

The Jews have been massacred and have suffered pogroms ever since their foundations. Christian Europe, Muslim Arabia, Russia, South America, Nazi Germany... I find the fact that they still around after attempts at their extermination by just about every culture everywhere convincing.

That just raises the question: if God likes the Jews so much, why let them go through all that persecution and genocide in the first place?

Science is one of my favorite subjects, but it never changed my beliefs, though. I just figured this world was always more expansive and intricate than I would have previously imagined anyway. It seems to me that we are bound to find a greater complexity and structure to our universe, but that supreme order of things in itself makes me feel that as though it didn't simply exist by chance. The more systematic and orderly the world feels, the more I marvel at it and wonder if there was a mind at work that originally made it so.

You know, I've often wondered how many people would still think the Universe is so neat and ordered after learning about quantum mechanics and finding out just how random and counter-intuitive things are once you get down to the subatomic scale.

Muslim Arabia, Muslim Spain (Spain was Muslim for over 800 years!), and the Ottoman Empire were the ONLY places Jews lived in peace and harmony. I'm not saying that they faced absolutely no persecution, just as we cannot say that Jews have never persecuted others before, but they certainly had the most freedoms and best treatment under Islamic empires and Shari'a Law. Most rabbis will surprisingly tell you the truth in this matter.

Spain wasn't really "Muslim for over 800 years"- the Christians had taken back most of Spain long before that, and for the last 250 years the only Muslim presence was the little Emirate of Granada (yes, I'm a bit of a world history buff). You're right about the Ottoman Empire though- it varied over time, but generally the Ottoman Empire was surprisingly tolerant for its time.

 

[RPGMasterTurk91]

basically what you said right there is that only a god can do impossible things. that's your entire post in one sentence.

No, but God can do things that are not humanly possible. No human being or any other living creature can be omniscient, but God can be, and is. Only one omnipotent being out there, too, and that's God. Omniscience and free will are compatible with one another, and the only one who is truly omniscient is God Himself. Omnipotence is also impossible to attain, but is a quality that only God has. Omnipotence is impossible, in your context, but is possible (and is the case) for God.

Once again I ask- how do you know? While it's true that natural beings cannot be omniscient, there is no reason to assume that any creator can be omniscient either, or that there is only one deity capable of omniscience.


That just raises the question: if God likes the Jews so much, why let them go through all that persecution and genocide in the first place?

Science is one of my favorite subjects, but it never changed my beliefs, though. I just figured this world was always more expansive and intricate than I would have previously imagined anyway. It seems to me that we are bound to find a greater complexity and structure to our universe, but that supreme order of things in itself makes me feel that as though it didn't simply exist by chance. The more systematic and orderly the world feels, the more I marvel at it and wonder if there was a mind at work that originally made it so.

You know, I've often wondered how many people would still think the Universe is so neat and ordered after learning about quantum mechanics and finding out just how random and counter-intuitive things are once you get down to the subatomic scale.

Muslim Arabia, Muslim Spain (Spain was Muslim for over 800 years!), and the Ottoman Empire were the ONLY places Jews lived in peace and harmony. I'm not saying that they faced absolutely no persecution, just as we cannot say that Jews have never persecuted others before, but they certainly had the most freedoms and best treatment under Islamic empires and Shari'a Law. Most rabbis will surprisingly tell you the truth in this matter.

Spain wasn't really "Muslim for over 800 years"- the Christians had taken back most of Spain long before that, and for the last 250 years the only Muslim presence was the little Emirate of Granada (yes, I'm a bit of a world history buff). You're right about the Ottoman Empire though- it varied over time, but generally the Ottoman Empire was surprisingly tolerant for its time.

I didn't say the LAST 800 years, I said for OVER 800 years. What history fails to teach properly is the science and advancement of Europe (specifically in Spain) thanks to the law of the land which helped produce some of the worlds most underrated chemists, physics, doctors, mathematicians, and much, much more. But an even bigger lie historians repeat about Islam is that it was spread by the sword, I'll get into detail if anyone wishes, and it doesn't take long to disprove that claim.

God is the creator of all things, however He does not give these creations the quality of things that only belong to Him. There is nothing that is like God, and God is like nothing that exists in this world. Thus, Him being omniscient alone still stands as a quality for none BUT God. For me, the more I look into science, the more I see signs of God. Scientifically explainable means intervention from God, for if there wasn't, there would entropy and chaos about the world. But we can see that everything is remarkably organized and incredibly controlled.

If we didn't have a certain insect (I forget which it was) that feeds on soil and breeds in mass amounts with short life spans, this whole planet would be uninhabitable (something to do with the sea level). I will get more info on this, but for now, I would like to see the theory of evolution combat that, or the fact that we have an organized water cycle.

 

[Napalmbrain]

I didn't say the LAST 800 years, I said for OVER 800 years. What history fails to teach properly is the science and advancement of Europe (specifically in Spain) thanks to the law of the land which helped produce some of the worlds most underrated chemists, physics, doctors, mathematicians, and much, much more. But an even bigger lie historians repeat about Islam is that it was spread by the sword, I'll get into detail if anyone wishes, and it doesn't take long to disprove that claim.

I meant the last 250 years of those 800 years.

And I agree, the old Islamic scientists don't get the recognition they deserve.

God is the creator of all things, however He does not give these creations the quality of things that only belong to Him. There is nothing that is like God, and God is like nothing that exists in this world. Thus, Him being omniscient alone still stands as a quality for none BUT God. For me, the more I look into science, the more I see signs of God. Scientifically explainable means intervention from God, for if there wasn't, there would entropy and chaos about the world. But we can see that everything is remarkably organized and incredibly controlled.

Err... there is entropy in the world. Every electrical device in your house gives off some waste energy as heat.

If we didn't have a certain insect (I forget which it was) that feeds on soil and breeds in mass amounts with short life spans, this whole planet would be uninhabitable (something to do with the sea level). I will get more info on this, but for now, I would like to see the theory of evolution combat that, or the fact that we have an organized water cycle.

I know you or your source have misinterpreted something with that insect thing, but I can wait for you to get your info. As for the water cycle, I can assure you it's a perfectly natural process with no supernatural intervention needed.

 

[ARav989]

Damn Napalm, you're a one man army. Hahahah anything any of the other people could bring up is already being said by you. and said so much better too xD.

Like i was gonna say something about a post above, then i scrolled down, and you already got it.

Good debate though. Even as an Agnostic/Atheist (I'm still on the fence i think), i think the believers in your God are making good points.

 

[navarre]

Muslim Arabia, Muslim Spain (Spain was Muslim for over 800 years!), and the Ottoman Empire were the ONLY places Jews lived in peace and harmony. I'm not saying that they faced absolutely no persecution, just as we cannot say that Jews have never persecuted others before, but they certainly had the most freedoms and best treatment under Islamic empires and Shari'a Law. Most rabbis will surprisingly tell you the truth in this matter.

Maybe in some parts of the Caliphate, although in Yemen Jews were beaten up and killed and this was allowed. In Egypt, Jews who did not dismount from their horse when passing a mosque could be tried. They may have had some rights, but their rights were still pretty much minimal.

just raises the question: if God likes the Jews so much, why let them go through all that persecution and genocide in the first place?

I can't really answer that. Maybe it's a test. Maybe it's just that God has made Gentiles jealous of Jews because they were the original monotheists with whom God established His convenant with. I can say, it's not God who puts the Jews through it, it's man.

You know, I've often wondered how many people would still think the Universe is so neat and ordered after learning about quantum mechanics and finding out just how random and counter-intuitive things are once you get down to the subatomic scale.

I don't think the Universe is 'neat and ordered'.

 

[Napalmbrain]

I can't really answer that. Maybe it's a test. Maybe it's just that God has made Gentiles jealous of Jews because they were the original monotheists with whom God established His convenant with. I can say, it's not God who puts the Jews through it, it's man.

They weren't the original monotheists- the Zoroastrians were around before them, and there was a brief monotheistic Sun god cult in ancient Egypt.

Also, if God is supposed to love everyone, why would he have favoured the Jews so much? To me, it seems much more likely that Judaism is just a cultural mythology that has happened to survive longer than most others (and by extension, Christianity, Islam, and Baha'i are also modern-day mythologies, except without the cultural aspect).

I don't think the Universe is 'neat and ordered'.

I was referring to those that do, like Bio and Turk.

 

[navarre]

They weren't the original monotheists- the Zoroastrians were around before them, and there was a brief monotheistic Sun god cult in ancient Egypt.

Ok- they were the first great monotheists. They established their own kingdom, their own scriptures, their Temple.

Also, if God is supposed to love everyone, why would he have favoured the Jews so much? To me, it seems much more likely that Judaism is just a cultural mythology that has happened to survive longer than most others (and by extension, Christianity, Islam, and Baha'i are also modern-day mythologies, except without the cultural aspect).

He established His covenant with the Jews because they seemed to be the only great monotheists in the world. Even though I agree it does show some favouritism, Christians such as myself believe that His new covenant is with both Jews and Gentiles, thus ending any favouritism.

 

[Napalmbrain]

Also, if God is supposed to love everyone, why would he have favoured the Jews so much? To me, it seems much more likely that Judaism is just a cultural mythology that has happened to survive longer than most others (and by extension, Christianity, Islam, and Baha'i are also modern-day mythologies, except without the cultural aspect).

He established His covenant with the Jews because they seemed to be the only great monotheists in the world. Even though I agree it does show some favouritism, Christians such as myself believe that His new covenant is with both Jews and Gentiles, thus ending any favouritism.

So why didn't he just send prophets to every part of the world rather than just the Middle East? It seems odd to me that God supposedly wants everyone to believe in him, but never bothered to tell the peoples of the Far East, Sub-Saharan Africa, the Americas, etc. about himself. Yes, I know you're going to say that he gave the task of spreading the message to his followers, but you'd think he'd mix up things a little rather than only interacting with the Middle East.

And another thing- in the Bible, God does miraculous things all the time. So why not anymore? (Note: I don't mean miracles as in someone surviving cancer or whatever, but rather scientifically impossible things like turning a rod becoming a serpent, or someone feeding 5000 with 2 fish)

 

[navarre]

Also, if God is supposed to love everyone, why would he have favoured the Jews so much? To me, it seems much more likely that Judaism is just a cultural mythology that has happened to survive longer than most others (and by extension, Christianity, Islam, and Baha'i are also modern-day mythologies, except without the cultural aspect).

He established His covenant with the Jews because they seemed to be the only great monotheists in the world. Even though I agree it does show some favouritism, Christians such as myself believe that His new covenant is with both Jews and Gentiles, thus ending any favouritism.

So why didn't he just send prophets to every part of the world rather than just the Middle East? It seems odd to me that God supposedly wants everyone to believe in him, but never bothered to tell the peoples of the Far East, Sub-Saharan Africa, the Americas, etc. about himself. Yes, I know you're going to say that he gave the task of spreading the message to his followers, but you'd think he'd mix up things a little rather than only interacting with the Middle East.

And another thing- in the Bible, God does miraculous things all the time. So why not anymore? (Note: I don't mean miracles as in someone surviving cancer or whatever, but rather scientifically impossible things like a rod becoming a serpent, or someone feeding 5000 with 2 fish)

Well, it's actually beliefs along some Christians that God has indeed sent an inummerable amount of prophets to every people in the world. The Jews, however, are the only people who took what the prophets said into account.

I would argue that God does indeed continue to do miracles, however seeing as He no longer sends prophets but ordinary people to do His work, these miracles are of a different substance.

 

[RPGMasterTurk91]

I didn't say the LAST 800 years, I said for OVER 800 years. What history fails to teach properly is the science and advancement of Europe (specifically in Spain) thanks to the law of the land which helped produce some of the worlds most underrated chemists, physics, doctors, mathematicians, and much, much more. But an even bigger lie historians repeat about Islam is that it was spread by the sword, I'll get into detail if anyone wishes, and it doesn't take long to disprove that claim.

I meant the last 250 years of those 800 years.

And I agree, the old Islamic scientists don't get the recognition they deserve.

God is the creator of all things, however He does not give these creations the quality of things that only belong to Him. There is nothing that is like God, and God is like nothing that exists in this world. Thus, Him being omniscient alone still stands as a quality for none BUT God. For me, the more I look into science, the more I see signs of God. Scientifically explainable means intervention from God, for if there wasn't, there would entropy and chaos about the world. But we can see that everything is remarkably organized and incredibly controlled.

Err... there is entropy in the world. Every electrical device in your house gives off some waste energy as heat.

If we didn't have a certain insect (I forget which it was) that feeds on soil and breeds in mass amounts with short life spans, this whole planet would be uninhabitable (something to do with the sea level). I will get more info on this, but for now, I would like to see the theory of evolution combat that, or the fact that we have an organized water cycle.

I know you or your source have misinterpreted something with that insect thing, but I can wait for you to get your info. As for the water cycle, I can assure you it's a perfectly natural process with no supernatural intervention needed.

Well of course there's entropy in a sense, but within it is order. I learned the word entropy in 9th grade in biology class, and it wasn't like we were taught that it is a concept that doesn't exist, but through it does not cause chaos.

As for the water cycle, I didn't claim that it's divine it itself, I did claim however that its precision and existence alone is an evidence that God exists. To exist in such a fashion, even the air we breathe with all the necessary components, these were all designed for life to exist. Pure oxygen is poison, keep that in mind.