Does God exist?

[Napalmbrain]

If god creates everyone then why does he create people with mental or physical disabilities? I just saw 2 girls that were conjoined by their head on TV. Asshole

So this concerns evil (corruption, illness, disease, famine, poverty, torture, war, etc.) existing in the world...

Lots of people are looking into the situation in Haiti and asking "Why would God allow such a thing to occur? If he really exists, he would have to be good, so either he exists and isn't good, or he doesn't exist, since he would have prevented or not have had the earthquake occur in the first place, which killed tens of thousands of innocent human beings."

They may also look into the fact that there are conjoined twins, deformed faces, nasty birth defects, illnesses, etc that are all too evident. I can understand why one might think that if God existed, these cases would cease to exist. But does that really disprove the existence of God, especially a Good God? I'm not gonna start pulling verses from a sacred text or scriptures, as that tends to do nothing. If I can derive answers from the text logically (meaning it makes complete sense) I will use it (it really annoys me when people throw Bible verses at you with the implication that it's correct and directly FROM God, so you should just believe it--what a horrible tactic). But for now, it will be more conceptual.

What I'm about to say might sound bizarre to some, but hear me out:

It is no secret that things that appear to be evil occur every day in daily life, and being born with severe defects or dying shortly after is no exception to these realities we have all seen. To me, God existing also means God is indeed Good. Evil occurrences or natural disasters does not rule out His existence, nor does it disqualify Him from being good. So, how then can a good God allow evil things to happen? Firstly, in order for good to exist or be evident, there needs to be a combating of the opposite--evil. I'm not saying that if you don't get your brother or sister a glass of water when they ask for it, you are committing evil, but if you didn't, you have went against that which may be considered good (the situation is theoretical, I made it up). Evil isn't limited to heinous crimes or extreme occurrences, either.

So as I was saying, evil-like things certainly occur, but in the end, they will always appear to be evil to a person who takes things at face value. For instance, a baby is born and a few minutes later he or she dies due to various reasons and is beyond any aid that will save him or her. At first glance, this is an "evil" occurrence (I explained just earlier that evil doesn't necessarily have to consist of heinous crimes such as committing murder, stealing, etc.). Let's say that you were able to speak to God directly, and you asked Him what his reasoning was behind allowing such a thing to happen, He might tell you that if that baby had lived, your life will have been made a "living Hell" and the immense discomfort he or she may have caused you would have caused you to become an unbeliever in the True religion (whatever that religion may be). In other words, there is always good to come out from evil, but also something that appears to be evil may actually be good, you just have to accept it as and realize that it is in fact a blessing.

You may then ask--why go through with the pregnancy then if the baby was 'destined' to die? A theistic answer (that is, in this context, someone who believes in God and that this life is just a test) would be that the pregnancy was a test/trial, but also may have brought about necessary good for that person or family in the long run and overall. God allows evil to occur, but he also allows good. When an 'apparent evil' has occurred, it is usually for the greater good, in other words. And might I add that a world with only good is an unrealistic one in which free will plays no part.

Everything I have said is pretty much the Islamic perspective on this matter, and is in my own words.

So basically, God allows evil to test us. But what's he trying to prove? And who's he trying to prove it to? He's supposed to be omniscient, so he should already know what we're going to do before we even do it anyway. I'm sure someone's going to reply, "because he gave us free will", but that would mean God does not know everything. And if he doesn't know everything, why call him God?

Moreover, God being both omniscient and omnipotent raises a paradox- if God is omniscient, then he already knows what he's going to do before he does it, which means that he can't be omnipotent because he can't change his future. But if he is omnipotent, then he can change what he predicted he was going to do, which means he can't be omniscient.

 

[RPGMasterTurk91]

So basically, God allows evil to test us. But what's he trying to prove? And who's he trying to prove it to? He's supposed to be omniscient, so he should already know what we're going to do before we even do it anyway. I'm sure someone's going to reply, "because he gave us free will", but that would mean God does not know everything. And if he doesn't know everything, why call him God?

Moreover, God being both omniscient and omnipotent raises a paradox- if God is omniscient, then he already knows what he's going to do before he does it, which means that he can't be omnipotent because he can't change his future. But if he is omnipotent, then he can change what he predicted he was going to do, which means he can't be omniscient.

God giving us free will does NOT mean he doesn't know everything, it's not God being 'insecure' about the future. You were born, if there was no free will there would be no good or evil, or feeling for that matter. But there is, and this does not have to be proven. God knows everything that will happen. Does that translate directly over to destiny? No, knowing the future doesn't disqualify one from being omniscient. If you were to find out whether you were going to heaven or hell, the answer would probably be hell. For, if someone was somehow told it for sure (through a divine intervention, again, it's theoretical) then by figuring out the answer would go to Hell. Heaven would be near impossible because people would do whatever they wanted if they knew that the end result was heaven. So if they were told 'heaven', they would do things that would normally bring them to hell and is thus a paradox. This concept explains God knowing the future but still being omniscient and omnipotent, and that he didn't dick us all over by 'setting up our futures'. So having free will by no means does not disqualify God from being omniscient or omnipotent, let alone existent.

First of all STOP BRINGING THIS TO EVOLUTION. THAT IS NOT WHAT THIS CONVERSATION IS ABOUT. >_<

Secondly, yes there would still be this topic. Because so many people blindly follow God even though he doesn't exist so we must still have the conversation even though nobody has provided any evidence for his existence, only against.

I know where you're coming from--you firmly believe that God doesn't exist, and thus all the people who believe that he does are brainwashed and their 'innocent minds' have been rigged to believe something completely false. Just like how we know that chain letters spams will never ever come true no matter what, all the people who do are clearly wrong and are in some way lied to or just plain stupid/gullible (or stupid for being gullible, gullible implies being too easily tricked into believing something whether it's true or not).

BUT, despite me understanding your situation so well (that ^^ should be about right) I STILL don't agree with your atheistic standpoint. I myself believe that for us to be in existence, there had to have been an original existence with no creator, which created order and uniformity throughout the universe, something blind chance could never produce. Forget about all the things we see on this planet alone, there is absolute order outer space that gravity (or lack thereof), which is a force, couldn't have just placed everything together within the laws of physics. I'm not saying that 'God works his way around physics', I'm saying he created those things which brought about order. Everything is structured so perfectly that an intelligent being needed to have caused it. Believing in the Big Bang Theory, evolution, and creationism (or variations of each) does not disqualify believing in God, either.

God doesn't need the proof that many people demand to exist. No amount of proof will satisfy such people, and when they are presented with proof, they are ready to refute it before they receive the statement of proof. Close-minded much? A quick yet vital proof is all the physical and chemical properties of water which are specifically designed for life to exist. Many will pass this off either as coincidence, or the reason we are 'living today' is because of such qualities that happen to exist as perfectly as they do. I'm telling you right now, God is never going to write a message in the clouds in the English language and speak with a deep, man-like voice, again in English (I'm catering to all the close-minded people out there), to the whole world to prove that he exists. He expects or us and wants us to realize it through our daily encounters and how perfectly the world is run, etc. He knows that there will be heaps of people who, despite all the evidence around them, completely reject and refuse to see such things at being from God--the Perfect Creator alone. You might think, well if there's a God, then it should be very obvious, and there's too many of us who highly doubt His existence. This again doesn't disprove His existence, nor is it an unheard of reaction from the creation. People have been refuting the existence of God for THOUSANDS of years. That STILL doesn't mean He doesn't exist, and also doesn't mean he cannot be loving, fair, just, merciful, and Good. Similarly, natural disasters occurring and ruining thousands of peoples' lives, if not killing them, does not disqualify said God.

 

[Napalmbrain]

God giving us free will does NOT mean he doesn't know everything, it's not God being 'insecure' about the future. You were born, if there was no free will there would be no good or evil, or feeling for that matter. But there is, and this does not have to be proven. God knows everything that will happen. Does that translate directly over to destiny? No, knowing the future doesn't disqualify one from being omniscient. If you were to find out whether you were going to heaven or hell, the answer would probably be hell. For, if someone was somehow told it for sure (through a divine intervention, again, it's theoretical) then by figuring out the answer would go to Hell. Heaven would be near impossible because people would do whatever they wanted if they knew that the end result was heaven. So if they were told 'heaven', they would do things that would normally bring them to hell and is thus a paradox. This concept explains God knowing the future but still being omniscient and omnipotent, and that he didn't dick us all over by 'setting up our futures'. So having free will by no means does not disqualify God from being omniscient or omnipotent, let alone existent.

You didn't really answer the question. How can you allow for free will and still have an omniscient God? If he's omniscient, he already knows what you're going to do, and hence your choices must have been destined to happen, which would mean you never had free will.

 

[ssbb_lover]

If you were to find out whether you were going to heaven or hell, the answer would probably be hell. For, if someone was somehow told it for sure (through a divine intervention, again, it's theoretical) then by figuring out the answer would go to Hell. Heaven would be near impossible because people would do whatever they wanted if they knew that the end result was heaven. So if they were told 'heaven', they would do things that would normally bring them to hell and is thus a paradox. This concept explains God knowing the future but still being omniscient and omnipotent, and that he didn't dick us all over by 'setting up our futures'. So having free will by no means does not disqualify God from being omniscient or omnipotent, let alone existent.

Are you trying to say that God can't predict what we're going to do, or what he's going to do?

"Suturing our futures" would have been fine as long as we didn't know our end result. By setting up a future destination to Heaven or Hell, that directly affects our actions on Earth. Still have no idea how that explains God's omniscience and/or omnipresence, though.

In your theoretical, if some divine intervention came along and told us (non-Christians) we were going to Hell, then we might feel that the possibility of God is much higher and that we actually need to change our course of life. You already said he gave us free will to choose what we want to do, so we should have the ability to overcome a given prediction.

*EDIT*

Oh, also. What about "God is the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End?" Time isn't supposed to be relative in his domain, so he should know what is going to happen at all times in the future.

 

[Shadow*91]

ah... much better. i missed the intelligent debate turk brought. it's nice to have you back turk.

 

[Napalmbrain]

God doesn't need the proof that many people demand to exist. No amount of proof will satisfy such people, and when they are presented with proof, they are ready to refute it before they receive the statement of proof. Close-minded much? A quick yet vital proof is all the physical and chemical properties of water which are specifically designed for life to exist. Many will pass this off either as coincidence, or the reason we are 'living today' is because of such qualities that happen to exist as perfectly as they do. I'm telling you right now, God is never going to write a message in the clouds in the English language and speak with a deep, man-like voice, again in English (I'm catering to all the close-minded people out there), to the whole world to prove that he exists. He expects or us and wants us to realize it through our daily encounters and how perfectly the world is run, etc. He knows that there will be heaps of people who, despite all the evidence around them, completely reject and refuse to see such things at being from God--the Perfect Creator alone. You might think, well if there's a God, then it should be very obvious, and there's too many of us who highly doubt His existence. This again doesn't disprove His existence, nor is it an unheard of reaction from the creation. People have been refuting the existence of God for THOUSANDS of years. That STILL doesn't mean He doesn't exist, and also doesn't mean he cannot be loving, fair, just, merciful, and Good. Similarly, natural disasters occurring and ruining thousands of peoples' lives, if not killing them, does not disqualify said God.

I'm not close-minded, just sceptical. Show me reliable proof for God's existence, and I'll accept it. By "reliable proof", I don't mean some nonsense about intelligent design or a First Cause- that is simply using God to explain away something when you can't think of any other answer.

Are you trying to say that God can't predict what we're going to do, or what he's going to do?

I'm saying that God cannot allow free will and yet be omniscience, nor can he both omniscient and omnipotent.

 

[ssbb_lover]

Sorry Kyle, you hadn't posted when I typed that. It was directed towards Turk, but I wanted to separate it from everything else so then it seemed as if it was directed towards you. Will edit..

 

[navarre]

I in Christianity like I believe in the Sun- not only because I see it, but because through it I see everything.

Quote me, sig me, it's not often I come out with such awesome quotes.

 

[Shadow*91]

I in Christianity like I believe in the Sun- not only because I see it, but because through it I see everything.

Quote me, sig me, it's not often I come out with such awesome quotes.

that makes no sense

 

[Napalmbrain]

I in Christianity like I believe in the Sun- not only because I see it, but because through it I see everything.

What about night-time?

 

[her01771]

know what? dam it. no ones gonna change ideas.
last hing i gotta say for u ppl that dont believe in god is that god forgive you. +

 

[DBloke]

I in Christianity like I believe in the Sun- not only because I see it, but because through it I see everything.

What about night-time?

The only way night can be seen is via nightvision of a torch but then a new problem arrives as the light gets rid of it

 

[AndThen?]

Heaven would be near impossible because people would do whatever they wanted if they knew that the end result was heaven. So if they were told 'heaven', they would do things that would normally bring them to hell and is thus a paradox.

This is another thing I don't like about the religious. The motive behind everything has to do with being a God-fearing individual. Despite me thinking the idea of afterlife is ridiculous, and not believing in any God by which to be judged, I'm somehow able to refrain from committing murder, theft, and other things that "would normally bring me to hell". Well, except for the gay thing, but that's just stupid.

When the ethic of a large group of people comes entirely from a book written thousands of years ago... well, it's dangerous. And when the religious use religion as a reason for committing heinous acts (say, the Westboro Baptist Church picketing soldiers' funerals), it kind of showcases how dangerous that can be. I find that often it's the non-religious who are more ethical.

 

[RPGMasterTurk91]

If you were to find out whether you were going to heaven or hell, the answer would probably be hell. For, if someone was somehow told it for sure (through a divine intervention, again, it's theoretical) then by figuring out the answer would go to Hell. Heaven would be near impossible because people would do whatever they wanted if they knew that the end result was heaven. So if they were told 'heaven', they would do things that would normally bring them to hell and is thus a paradox. This concept explains God knowing the future but still being omniscient and omnipotent, and that he didn't dick us all over by 'setting up our futures'. So having free will by no means does not disqualify God from being omniscient or omnipotent, let alone existent.

Are you trying to say that God can't predict what we're going to do, or what he's going to do?

"Suturing our futures" would have been fine as long as we didn't know our end result. By setting up a future destination to Heaven or Hell, that directly affects our actions on Earth. Still have no idea how that explains God's omniscience and/or omnipresence, though.

In your theoretical, if some divine intervention came along and told us (non-Christians) we were going to Hell, then we might feel that the possibility of God is much higher and that we actually need to change our course of life. You already said he gave us free will to choose what we want to do, so we should have the ability to overcome a given prediction.

*EDIT*

Oh, also. What about "God is the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End?" Time isn't supposed to be relative in his domain, so he should know what is going to happen at all times in the future.

I'm going to answer what you said again about the relation of God's omnipotence and his knowledge of knowing which humans will enter heaven or hell, and how the concept still stands strong. God knows the future--this doesn't affect the future. In the theistic point of view, God doesn't cause the future, however he does know it. Where in this does this disqualify God of being omniscient? He's not the one who directly decides the future of one's life on this earth. If he did, he would control who goes to hell or heaven, and free will, again, would play no part in this plan. Neither would justice. God cannot cause an injustice, it goes against His nature. And that 'plan' obviously doesn't exist since we all do in fact have free will. An omniscient God who knows the future can exist while free will among humans exist, there is no breaking of harmony there in any way.

Thanks for welcoming me back, Shadow. It's good to be back, though I will still be busy but I'll try and come back and post/read this thread as well as others on this forum. :yesnod:

 

[Napalmbrain]

I'm going to answer what you said again about the relation of God's omnipotence and his knowledge of knowing which humans will enter heaven or hell, and how the concept still stands strong. God knows the future--this doesn't affect the future. In the theistic point of view, God doesn't cause the future, however he does know it. Where in this does this disqualify God of being omniscient? He's not the one who directly decides the future of one's life on this earth. If he did, he would control who goes to hell or heaven, and free will, again, would play no part in this plan. Neither would justice. God cannot cause an injustice, it goes against His nature. And that 'plan' obviously doesn't exist since we all do in fact have free will. An omniscient God who knows the future can exist while free will among humans exist, there is no breaking of harmony there in any way.

I'm not talking about God causing the future, merely knowing it. If God knows your future (which he would if he were omniscient), that would mean all your choices are already destined to happen (otherwise he wouldn't know your future), and therefore you would have no free will.