Does God exist?

[smartypants]

I believe God is man made. :wink:

 

[RPGMasterTurk91]

I'm going to answer what you said again about the relation of God's omnipotence and his knowledge of knowing which humans will enter heaven or hell, and how the concept still stands strong. God knows the future--this doesn't affect the future. In the theistic point of view, God doesn't cause the future, however he does know it. Where in this does this disqualify God of being omniscient? He's not the one who directly decides the future of one's life on this earth. If he did, he would control who goes to hell or heaven, and free will, again, would play no part in this plan. Neither would justice. God cannot cause an injustice, it goes against His nature. And that 'plan' obviously doesn't exist since we all do in fact have free will. An omniscient God who knows the future can exist while free will among humans exist, there is no breaking of harmony there in any way.

I'm not talking about God causing the future, merely knowing it. If God knows your future (which he would if he were omniscient), that would mean all your choices are already destined to happen (otherwise he wouldn't know your future), and therefore you would have no free will.

No, my friend, knowing the future doesn't mean you have made that future. You're saying that since we have free will, there could not be an Omniscient God who knows all things, past, present, and future, because then that would mean it was destined for us, and surely we do have free will to control our own lives. Getting hit by a car is not usually caused by your own free will, and at times, not the driver who hit you, either. It could be knowingly, willingly, and intentionally, or completely accidental, or done under some form of hypnosis (not necessarily a deliberately hypnotized person, just someone who is unaware at the time or perhaps passes out from a condition not caused by 'free will'). While free will may lead to this sort of thing, consciousness is not always absolute.

For God to know the future doesn't make His being omniscient an impossibility. We create our futures all while living in a world with nature taking its course (that goes to say that we don't control everything that goes on around us, and I mean literally). I still don't see how you think that if an existent God knew everything including your future, his knowing of the future would mean that your future has already been decided for you--heaven or hell. This isn't the case for one who knows the future and all things.

 

[navarre]

Science has me torn apart. The more I learn in chemistry, the more convince I am that there is a God. Physics, however, makes me doubt.

 

[ssbb_lover]

No, my friend, knowing the future doesn't mean you have made that future. You're saying that since we have free will, there could not be an Omniscient God who knows all things, past, present, and future, because then that would mean it was destined for us, and surely we do have free will to control our own lives. Getting hit by a car is not usually caused by your own free will, and at times, not the driver who hit you, either. It could be knowingly, willingly, and intentionally, or completely accidental, or done under some form of hypnosis (not necessarily a deliberately hypnotized person, just someone who is unaware at the time or perhaps passes out from a condition not caused by 'free will'). While free will may lead to this sort of thing, consciousness is not always absolute.

For God to know the future doesn't make His being omniscient an impossibility. We create our futures all while living in a world with nature taking its course (that goes to say that we don't control everything that goes on around us, and I mean literally). I still don't see how you think that if an existent God knew everything including your future, his knowing of the future would mean that your future has already been decided for you--heaven or hell. This isn't the case for one who knows the future and all things.

You're admitting exactly what Napalm is saying - you say God does know the future, so therefore destiny is set. He doesn't necessarily have to make the future, he just already knows it. Because of this, it's an oxymoron to say he's omniscient because by knowing a future he can't change it, he's powerless.

 

[her01771]

just something what if god really doesn't know ur destiney? what if YOU shape it?

 

[RPGMasterTurk91]

No, my friend, knowing the future doesn't mean you have made that future. You're saying that since we have free will, there could not be an Omniscient God who knows all things, past, present, and future, because then that would mean it was destined for us, and surely we do have free will to control our own lives. Getting hit by a car is not usually caused by your own free will, and at times, not the driver who hit you, either. It could be knowingly, willingly, and intentionally, or completely accidental, or done under some form of hypnosis (not necessarily a deliberately hypnotized person, just someone who is unaware at the time or perhaps passes out from a condition not caused by 'free will'). While free will may lead to this sort of thing, consciousness is not always absolute.

For God to know the future doesn't make His being omniscient an impossibility. We create our futures all while living in a world with nature taking its course (that goes to say that we don't control everything that goes on around us, and I mean literally). I still don't see how you think that if an existent God knew everything including your future, his knowing of the future would mean that your future has already been decided for you--heaven or hell. This isn't the case for one who knows the future and all things.

You're admitting exactly what Napalm is saying - you say God does know the future, so therefore destiny is set. He doesn't necessarily have to make the future, he just already knows it. Because of this, it's an oxymoron to say he's omniscient because by knowing a future he can't change it, he's powerless.

Ah I see what you're saying. How can God know the future and at the same time change it? Isn't he omniscient? How does an omniscient God who knows the future exist??

God knows the future, and within the future may be divine intervention. He, according to theistic belief, knows everything you do and is omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient. Therefore he also knows your deepest intents and yourself better than you do. Having to change the future goes against God's nature, it goes back to the question, "can God commit evil?". God can change the future, and in doing so, knew that he would change the future from the beginning. However, this is something that doesn't need to be meddled with, and goes against God's nature. The future is what we make of it (for the most part) and God knows what we will do and what will happen to us during our lives. He is still omniscient.

 

[Bio]

I feel as though we are running into the same issue that was expressed by wahwahwario when he brought up the question: "Can God make a rock that even he can't lift?". The question says two opposing things at once and thus contradicts itself, and I think we are running into the same problem when trying to logically prove if God can change a future that he already knows. In situations like these, I think the idea is that we have to make the assertion that one side of the thought is true for any kind of conclusion to make sense.

You guys are in a discussion beyond anything I can put any input into, so I'm just putting in any two cents that I can while "listening" to these interesting posts.

 

[Napalmbrain]

I'm going to answer what you said again about the relation of God's omnipotence and his knowledge of knowing which humans will enter heaven or hell, and how the concept still stands strong. God knows the future--this doesn't affect the future. In the theistic point of view, God doesn't cause the future, however he does know it. Where in this does this disqualify God of being omniscient? He's not the one who directly decides the future of one's life on this earth. If he did, he would control who goes to hell or heaven, and free will, again, would play no part in this plan. Neither would justice. God cannot cause an injustice, it goes against His nature. And that 'plan' obviously doesn't exist since we all do in fact have free will. An omniscient God who knows the future can exist while free will among humans exist, there is no breaking of harmony there in any way.

I'm not talking about God causing the future, merely knowing it. If God knows your future (which he would if he were omniscient), that would mean all your choices are already destined to happen (otherwise he wouldn't know your future), and therefore you would have no free will.

No, my friend, knowing the future doesn't mean you have made that future. You're saying that since we have free will, there could not be an Omniscient God who knows all things, past, present, and future, because then that would mean it was destined for us, and surely we do have free will to control our own lives. Getting hit by a car is not usually caused by your own free will, and at times, not the driver who hit you, either. It could be knowingly, willingly, and intentionally, or completely accidental, or done under some form of hypnosis (not necessarily a deliberately hypnotized person, just someone who is unaware at the time or perhaps passes out from a condition not caused by 'free will'). While free will may lead to this sort of thing, consciousness is not always absolute.

For God to know the future doesn't make His being omniscient an impossibility. We create our futures all while living in a world with nature taking its course (that goes to say that we don't control everything that goes on around us, and I mean literally). I still don't see how you think that if an existent God knew everything including your future, his knowing of the future would mean that your future has already been decided for you--heaven or hell. This isn't the case for one who knows the future and all things.

I think you're still not getting my point. Alright, say for example you had an apple and an orange in front of you, and you're asked to pick one. God, being omniscient, already knows which one you're going to pick. In order for God to know which one you'll pick, that future event must already be destined to happen. But if that future event is destined to happen, you don't actually have a choice.

just something what if god really doesn't know ur destiney? what if YOU shape it?

If he doesn't know your future, then he is not omniscient. But that, of course, would contradict what Christians and Muslims believe.

 

[RPGMasterTurk91]

just something what if god really doesn't know ur destiney? what if YOU shape it?

The word destiny implies that you do NOT shape your future, and that something interferes with something in life and is 'fated' to be a certain way, no matter what that person may do or neglect to do. Of course you shape your future, but one also has to understand that they are doing so in the context of their society and circumstances overall. Knowing the future doesn't make one unable to change it; the future may entail making changes to one's life if that person asked for it, but that person asking for a certain change is also known to God, and he decides whether success will ensure or not.

I think you're still not getting my point. Alright, say for example you had an apple and an orange in front of you, and you're asked to pick one. God, being omniscient, already knows which one you're going to pick. In order for God to know which one you'll pick, that future event must already be destined to happen. But if that future event is destined to happen, you don't actually have a choice.

I do understand what you're saying, but it's flawed logic. To think that knowing the future makes that future set and thus brings inevitable destiny to people is flawed logic. It is you who picks the orange over the apple, and God who knows it. If you were to pick the apple over the orange, well then God would have known that you were to pick the apple instead of the orange, only God knows the truth. You may not pick any by the end of the day and God would know that, too, by definition of being omniscient.

Do we not have people who claim to know the future, and are at times absolutely right about it? By 'knowing' the future, did they cause it to happen, or did circumstances lead to it happening? The difference is that God actually KNOWS what the right one is, He does not guess and cannot be wrong. He simply knows the future, He did not deliberately choose it out for you and plan your life out, though he knows every aspect of your life. Again, I see no way of how these pair of traits contradict one another.

"In order for God to know which one you'll pick, that future event must already be destined to happen".-->This is the gist of your argument, but its got a giant hole in it, that being the cause and effect you depicted altogether. Whereas someone can THINK they know exactly what's going to happen, they can still very well be wrong (this is a universal truth). They haven't determined the future in any way if they were right, even if they were right 100% of the time. God on the other hand knows the truth always, and can never BE wrong, according to what being omniscient and omnipotent entails. And if what you say is true, then free will doesn't exist, since free will is what determines most of our experiences in life, and random occurrences/accidents (which are not by any means a small portion) play the other role, in which you use your free will to react to such everyday things anyways.

 

[Napalmbrain]

I do understand what you're saying, but it's flawed logic. To think that knowing the future makes that future set and thus brings inevitable destiny to people is flawed logic. It is you who picks the orange over the apple, and God who knows it. If you were to pick the apple over the orange, well then God would have known that you were to pick the apple instead of the orange, only God knows the truth. You may not pick any by the end of the day and God would know that, too, by definition of being omniscient.

Do we not have people who claim to know the future, and are at times absolutely right about it? By 'knowing' the future, did they cause it to happen, or did circumstances lead to it happening? The difference is that God actually KNOWS what the right one is, He does not guess and cannot be wrong. He simply knows the future, He did not deliberately choose it out for you and plan your life out, though he knows every aspect of your life. Again, I see no way of how these pair of traits contradict one another.

"In order for God to know which one you'll pick, that future event must already be destined to happen".-->This is the gist of your argument, but its got a giant hole in it, that being the cause and effect you depicted altogether. Whereas someone can THINK they know exactly what's going to happen, they can still very well be wrong (this is a universal truth). They haven't determined the future in any way if they were right, even if they were right 100% of the time. God on the other hand knows the truth always, and can never BE wrong, according to what being omniscient and omnipotent entails. And if what you say is true, then free will doesn't exist, since free will is what determines most of our experiences in life, and random occurrences/accidents (which are not by any means a small portion) play the other role, in which you use your free will to react to such everyday things anyways.

But if God knows which choice you'll make before you make it, then that choice has to happen, otherwise that leaves the possibility that God could be wrong, and hence, not omniscient. So if God knows you're going to pick the orange, then the only possible outcome is that you pick the orange. Hence, that "choice" was never really a choice in the first place.

And for the last time, I am not talking about God causing the future to happen, just knowing it.

 

[ssbb_lover]

You might as well drop the subject, Kyle. What you're saying obviously isn't clicking with him, whether because of some religious barrier, lack of perspective, or something. Need to change the topic before this becomes stale anyway.

 

[RPGMasterTurk91]

You might as well drop the subject, Kyle. What you're saying obviously isn't clicking with him, whether because of some religious barrier, lack of perspective, or something. Need to change the topic before this becomes stale anyway.

I understood his question very clearly, I have read his variations of the question several times as well, including your input into the conversation. Just because I haven't accepted what he says as the end all doesn't mean that something "obviously isn't clicking". You're insulting me by saying that, and by endorsing ending the discussion which you played little to no part in, you're willing to leave it unfinished. His one statement isn't going to make me disbelieve in the existence of God, and the fact that I haven't given in to his/your side doesn't mean that the discussion should be ended immediately. If anything, it should be continued in the calm fashion as it is being displayed currently.

I know what you're saying--this little debate is going to go nowhere, and thus we're wasting time on it. But I assure you we are not, others will be reading our posts as well, and it has more sentimental value than you think.

But if God knows which choice you'll make before you make it, then that choice has to happen, otherwise that leaves the possibility that God could be wrong, and hence, not omniscient. So if God knows you're going to pick the orange, then the only possible outcome is that you pick the orange. Hence, that "choice" was never really a choice in the first place.

And for the last time, I am not talking about God causing the future to happen, just knowing it.

Then you answered the question yourself. God is not the one who causes the future to happen, he simply knows it and every outcome (again, we're talking about an omniscient, omnipotent figure here). It goes against his nature to commit evil and thus he never will resort to it, and to also change the future that he already knows. He can change it--but it is still the same future He knew of, and is still considered the future. So He is still omniscient. Him interfering with certain things in life MAKES the future, not picks it apart.

I know how you must feel--something completely logical to you, is seen as completely illogical by someone with religion. It's like you KNOWING that 2+2 is 4, and I am trying my best to explain to you that it is not and rather it is 3. You're saying that an Omniscient God is a paradox, an impossibility. I'm here to tell you that it is in fact logical and an absolute possibility that these two qualities of God are compatible, that he is Omniscient, and God at the same time (your statement in itself doesn't necessarily reject God existing, but rather his being omniscient and the logic or lack thereof behind it). With free will comes choice. God knows what your choice(s) will be and the decisions you are going to make before you make that choice, because He knows what's going on in your own mind way better than you do. Him knowing that you will pick the apple over the orange beforehand simply means He knew you were going to pick the apple. If you were to get stung by a bee just before you chose and it somehow influenced you to pick the orange instead, He knew of the bee and the fact that you were to pick the orange in the end. You made the decision with your free will, and God knew beforehand what your decision was going to be. Nothing contradictory there, and if you see it please feel free to point it out. If you can convince me that an being omniscient is an impossibility, I will throw away my belief in at least an omniscient God.

 

[ssbb_lover]

I haven't read your post yet (leaving to go do something), Turk, but I just wanted to quickly add that what I said was not meant to be offensive in any way if that's how you happened to take it. Sorry if it came out like that, I wasn't trying to be insulting in the least. However, if you do still think you understand the question at hand, I wouldn't be 100% that you do as Napalm and I have both stated that you're not answering the question(s) appropriately (not because you conflict what we're saying, it's because we feel you're not actually addressing the same thing, even though you think you are). Disagreeing isn't the problem, when I said "it's not clicking" I was talking about not being on the same page. You're an intelligent person and I don't mean for you to believe I'm calling you a fool or anything of the sort.

And also sorry if some of that doesn't make sense, I'm writing this hastily. Be back later..

 

[RPGMasterTurk91]

I haven't read your post yet (leaving to go do something), Turk, but I just wanted to quickly add that what I said was not meant to be offensive in any way if that's how you happened to take it. Sorry if it came out like that, I wasn't trying to be insulting in the least. However, if you do still think you understand the question at hand, I wouldn't be 100% that you do as Napalm and I have both stated that you're not answering the question(s) appropriately (not because you conflict what we're saying, it's because we feel you're not actually addressing the same thing, even though you think you are). Disagreeing isn't the problem, when I said "it's not clicking" I was talking about not being on the same page. You're an intelligent person and I don't mean for you to believe I'm calling you a fool or anything of the sort.

And also sorry if some of that doesn't make sense, I'm writing this hastily. Be back later..

Don't worry about it, I didn't take it offensively. The tone in which I speak in these posts may sometimes be tricky to spot due to it being the internet (of course text has its pros and cons), but I am never speaking angrily but rather calmly. I do understand better what you meant by saying "it's not clicking", that I'm not addressing the question properly as it is being asked (again, I read it slightly different because it's only text and is sometimes difficult to interpret). I understand what you mean when you say that because on this very post I have said the same thing myself to I think it was Shadow a while ago, where the responses did not match the question being asked. It might not have been Shadow, I'm not too sure, but it's unimportant right now.

Really quickly, I can also relate to you hoping the passage made sense as it was posted in a hurry, as it happens to me quite often =D When you're posting something and you're being rushed or to be somewhere, you can't just hit the 'submit' button, so I know what you mean and no worries, I understood what you said =)

But anyways, my previous post explains how I do in fact believe that I understood the question properly and have already answered it, but I'm still open to discussion about it. I read my response over and over and feel that it definitely does answer the question, but still let me know if you felt that it did not.

 

[Shadow*91]

how does that make any sense? to know the future means the future is preset, meaning no free will. but yet we have free will, meaning its impossible to know the future. so either it's impossible to have free will, or its impossible to know the future.

take the movie Next for instance(it about a guy that can see up to 2 minutes into his own future). the very first lines in the movie are: 'It's impossible to know the future, because every time you look at it, it changes because you looked at it.'
throughout the movie he sees things in his future but then chooses to either let that future happen or he'll prove it wrong by doing something different.

in a way, it's exactly what we're arguing about. if you know the future then there's no free will, but if there is free will then you can prove your future wrong by doing something to alter it. if god knows the future but then we do something to change it, then we just proved god wrong. but god can't be wrong because he's god. its an impossibility, a paradox