Abortion: Right or Wrong?

[Syntax]

Just because humans kill eachother means every instance of it is somehow justified? It looks as if you're trying to fight for the fact that humanity as a whole isn't civilised at all.

The fact that we're debating on computers, over the internet, using written words instead of stabbing you in the face pretty much proves that wrong.

I hope you're not as crazy as above quotee who doesn't mind if I murder you.

Did I ever say every instance of murder was justified? No, I don't think so. I also never mentioned that humanity as a whole isn't civilized. Honestly, if putting words into my mouth is the best argument you can come up with, that's just low.

My comment regarding murder as an obsession was directed to the issue of psychopaths who find the idea of killing someone to be nothing more than a game, or pleasure to them.

 

[Brawny]

Did I ever say every instance of murder was justified? No, I don't think so. I also never mentioned that humanity as a whole isn't civilized. Honestly, if putting words into my mouth is the best argument you can come up with, that's just low.

My comment regarding murder as an obsession was directed to the issue of psychopaths who find the idea of killing someone to be nothing more than a game, or pleasure to them.

Reading your comment, which was in response to one of Sixty's, it looks as if you're trying to collaborate on wiipsycho's stuff.

That isn't atheism. That's nihilism. Atheism doesn't say that we should do away with laws and such, they help to structure society

I wouldn't even say he's nihilist. Mostly crazy.

Evolution is natural. Eugenics is articificial.

But why not do it?

Believe me, I've spent much longer realigning my religion to science than the other way around.

 

[Squall7]

But why not do it?

Well, for a start, breeding in general is better when there is a wider range of genetic material to choose from. Take for example incest, the likelyhood of negative genetic traits being passed on is higher than usual. That and the fact that one of society's codes of behaviour stippulates that every person should have an equal right to life, and choice of mating partner (among other social liberties). If however, there were a group of people that didn't want to breed with other peoples, they would still be allowed to do that, but the consequences would be on them.

Besides, aren't different traits better suited to different settings? Such as melanin, which is the pigment in human skin, which provides resistance to certain frequencies of light (I'd say UV, but I'm sure Napalmbrain will correct me), favourable in sunnier countries. On the other hand, having a lower metabolism is better in colder countries (for which fat insulates the body). So how would one really breed the 'superior' human for everywhere?

Believe me, I've spent much longer realigning my religion to science than the other way around.

Fair enough.

 

[Brawny]

Well, for a start, breeding in general is better when there is a wider range of genetic material to choose from. Take for example incest, the likelyhood of negative genetic traits being passed on is higher than usual. That and the fact that one of society's codes of behaviour stippulates that every person should have an equal right to life, and choice of mating partner (among other social liberties). If however, there were a group of people that didn't want to breed with other peoples, they would still be allowed to do that, but the consequences would be on them.

Besides, aren't different traits better suited to different settings? Such as melanin, which is the pigment in human skin, which provides resistance to certain frequencies of light (I'd say UV, but I'm sure Napalmbrain will correct me), favourable in sunnier countries. On the other hand, having a lower metabolism is better in colder countries (for which fat insulates the body). So how would one really breed the 'superior' human for everywhere?


Fair enough.

Nah, I don't mean physical traits. Why not weed out the universal weaknesses?

Anyone with a history of heart disease, or cancer, or anyone mentally retarded. They should all just be aborted.

That and the fact that one of society's codes of behaviour

And where does this "code" come from? We're all just animals, right?

 

[Sovieto]

I'd rather be not born than born to some unfit 16 year old who gives me a hard life because they weren't prepared. Ruining my mother and I's life.

The other main alternative is giving the baby away when it is born, how much better is that?

Babies change lives, everyone isn't prepared for that, and it shouldn't be other people's snotty beliefs dictating how that person's life turns out.

 

[Napalmbrain]

(I'd say UV, but I'm sure Napalmbrain will correct me)

Normally I'd love to, but I don't know if you're right or wrong about that bit (biology isn't my forté).

And where does this "code" come from? We're all just animals, right?

Just because we're animals, doesn't mean we don't need codes of behaviour and rules. Take chimps, or dolphins, or even ants- they are very social animals with clear hierachies and behaviour patterns.

 

[Brawny]

The other main alternative is giving the baby away when it is born, how much better is that?

Uhm...I quite like having been adopted rather than killed. I hardly believe you on that "I'd rather be dead" thing. Opinions are heavily based on personal experience, after all.

I'd very much like to find my mother and thank her for not aborting.

Only need to make loads of money, find a person based on a name only, oh, and learn Korean.

 

[Boethiah]

Uhm...I quite like having been adopted rather than killed. I hardly believe you on that "I'd rather be dead" thing. Opinions are heavily based on personal experience, after all.

I'd very much like to find my mother and thank her for not aborting.

Only need to make loads of money, find a person based on a name only, oh, and learn Korean.

I don't understand why a woman should have to go through nine months of pregnancy, then go through the pain of child birth, just to give the child away. A fetus is a fetus. It is not a child. It will not care if it is dead, because it cannot think about such things.

Abortion should be an option. What you're suggesting is because you turned out all right, so every other child will be in your circumstances. This is untrue.


Why does religion try to push it's beliefs on everyone else?

 

[Brawny]

I don't understand why a woman should have to go through nine months of pregnancy, then go through the pain of child birth, just to give the child away. A fetus is a fetus. It is not a child. It will not care if it is dead, because it cannot think about such things.

Abortion should be an option. What you're suggesting is because you turned out all right, so every other child will be in your circumstances. This is untrue.


Why does religion try to push it's beliefs on everyone else?

Where do you make the distinction on the age of abortion? Or do you agree with squall that it could be any time between 0 and birth.

This really hinges on what you think a fetus is. Religion doesn't have to be involved. I know atheists who think that a fetus shouldn't be aborted.

Would you tell all the mothers who have had abortions and carry around guilt and remorse that they shouldn't feel such things because they only killed off a parasite?

I'm not suggesting that my case be the end-all-be-all circumstance that every adopted child will end up in. It really does give you a completely different perspective on life when you think that your mother didn't think of you as a useless burden, that she wanted the best for your wellbeing even though she knew she wasn't the one able to give it to you.

I just see it as selfishness.

Edit: Also, I still would allow some abortions to be legal. And the morning after pill is there for the taking.

 

[Boethiah]

Where do you make the distinction on the age of abortion? Or do you agree with squall that it could be any time between 0 and birth.

This really hinges on what you think a fetus is. Religion doesn't have to be involved. I know atheists who think that a fetus shouldn't be aborted.

Would you tell all the mothers who have had abortions and carry around guilt and remorse that they shouldn't feel such things because they only killed off a parasite?

I'm not suggesting that my case be the end-all-be-all circumstance that every adopted child will end up in. It really does give you a completely different perspective on life when you think that your mother didn't think of you as a useless burden, that she wanted the best for your wellbeing even though she knew she wasn't the one able to give it to you.

I just see it as selfishness.

Edit: Also, I still would allow some abortions to be legal. And the morning after pill is there for the taking.

To the first paragraph, I would consider abortions to be acceptable no later then six months, for instance. Somewhere in that ball park.

To the second paragraph, fair enough. I suppose I should have said a non liberal.

To the third paragraph, yes. They made the right choice for themselves.

To the fourth paragraph, if the baby was aborted, then it would not be able to think about such things.

To the last sentence on selfishness, why should the mother be considered selfish? She decided she made the mistake of getting into the situation of pregnancy and wanted to avoid the future nine months and child birth, to ultimately give the child away.

 

[Brawny]

To the first paragraph, I would consider abortions to be acceptable no later then six months, for instance. Somewhere in that ball park.

To the last sentence on selfishness, why should the mother be considered selfish? She decided she made the mistake of getting into the situation of pregnancy and wanted to avoid the future nine months and child birth, to ultimately give the child away.

What do you mean when you keep saying "to ultimately give it away" or something to that affect all the time?

Are you saying that the pain of watching it go is undeserved? Or that the pain and labor of carrying a child wouldn't be worth it?

You are right, SHE made the mistake of getting pregnant, and she's not the one getting punished when abortions are handed out.

 

[wiipsycho]

First, would you please start combining some sentences? The choppiness is messing with my mind.

Second, an answer to your question, no. There's that mystical third option that doesn't seem to exist to anyone: adoption. :idea: The baby gets raised in a loving and stable home. Killing a baby instead of watching it be abused? Why is murder okay, but abusing isn't? Under your theory, the parents can do to their child whatever they please. Where do you get your sense of right and wrong from if you're just an animal? It shouldn't matter to you if the parents hit or slap or rape their children at all.

Third...a way of life? Because you're obviously in the vast majority...

Oh, and most people are on death row because they killed someone. :tard:



Just because humans kill eachother means every instance of it is somehow justified? It looks as if you're trying to fight for the fact that humanity as a whole isn't civilised at all.

The fact that we're debating on computers, over the internet, using written words instead of stabbing you in the face pretty much proves that wrong.

I hope you're not as crazy as above quotee who doesn't mind if I murder you.



Haha, love how you say that the absence of laws wouldn't bring on a social downfall, yet right after you say that "unfortunately everyone doesn't have common sense." Laws are there for those people.

Seeing who thinks humans are generally civil and those who think we are generally evil is interesting.



Uhm...how can you agree with him if he's arguing something opposite of you?

It's impossible to get rid of religion, considering every person has one. Catholics has an o in it as well.

You misunderstand religion at its very core. I'll say I'm Christian, and speak from that viewpoint. I don't think I'm better than everyone else because I'm Christian. Being Christian doesn't mean you sin any less than anyone else. Becoming one isn't going to make you sin less. It just means that you realize that you do sin, a lot, and that you are truly sorry for them, and you are forgiven.

...As for the priests raping kids being okay comment... That's just wrong.

"Holy rollers", as you put it, aren't the only ones who disagree with abortion, especially on the scale that you propose.

One final thing, why do you assume that every child ever born is going to get abused? Do you have a personal issue with it?

I'd advise you get a more realistic outlook on humanity.

Okay, for the last time, it should be up to the parents. It has nothing to do with you and it doesn't have nothing to do with me. Its not our baby is it. So let them get rid of it. Like it or not. I'm not going to argue with you or any other anti- abortion freak on here. Have a nice day:smilewinkgrin:

 

[Boethiah]

What do you mean when you keep saying "to ultimately give it away" or something to that affect all the time?

It's just a choice of words I used to show that it's the mother's choice

Are you saying that the pain of watching it go is undeserved? Or that the pain and labor of carrying a child wouldn't be worth it?

Basically, on both accounts.

You are right, SHE made the mistake of getting pregnant, and she's not the one getting punished when abortions are handed out.

I've said this before. The fetus does not realize it is being aborted, because it cannot think about such things. If it does not realize it is being "punished", then it does not really matter to the fetus anyway. The mother should have the choice, in my eyes, to remove something from her body that she does not want in it.

Besides, abortions will also open up new doors in the fields of stem cell research. A future life may be sacrificed, but it could save many more lives.

I don't quite understand the mindset of pro life supporters. It almost sounds like pro life people think that if abortions were made legal everywhere, THEY would be forced to have an abortion.

 

[LeWaffles]

they should use the excess umbilical cords for stem cell research, limited yes, but still in view of both sides, harmless.

 

[Brawny]

^ Stem cell debate is becoming rather moot, since it's being discovered that adult cells can do like 90% of what embryo cells can.