The Christian religion

[DBloke]

 

[The_Mitch]

thanks, i was beginning to think i was the only christian on this forum lol

are you forgetting about the man who started this thread?

Since I don't feel like reading paragraphs of paragraphs and paragraphs of stuff.
I would just like to ask:
HOW THE HELL ARE YOU DEBATING OVER A RELIGION?

Seriously, I might not be talking about what you guys are talking about, but can't you guys just go on with your mary lives knowing what religion you are/aren't and just keep everything to yourself?

um because debate is healthy and a good way to learn and teach. anyways white wolf and I Dont Know859, i enjoyed reading your debates. i have some new questions about christianity but that leads me to be a stronger christian. i have found that my connection with God is sronger now than before i started this thread.

 

[I_Dont_Know859]

are you forgetting about the man who started this thread?



um because debate is healthy and a good way to learn and teach. anyways white wolf and I Dont Know859, i enjoyed reading your debates. i have some new questions about christianity but that leads me to be a stronger christian. i have found that my connection with God is sronger now than before i started this thread.

sorry about that. and yea i'm glad that God used me and white wolf to help you out. i gotta lot out of this debate as well. thats God for ya. keep the faith brother

 

[Napalmbrain]

ok the best way i can explain this to you is that yes are fate has already been determined. He knows everything we will do from giving us free will. So he isnt consciously controlling us. He is letting us do our own thing while knowing what we will do before hand. So yes your right our fate is predetermined. ok think of it this way god gave us free will and looked into the future to see what we would do with it therefore technically speaking from your view that free will is taken away which i can see where you are coming from but. ALL GOD DID WAS LOOK AHEAD OF TIME. Our actions have been predetermined by the gift of free will. If almighty God wants to look into the future, who's to stop him. I guess it is just down to what you call it, but it sounds like free will to me. I'm ending my agrument here because like i said its hard to witness over the internet. But to a logical person i believe this is very possible if you believe there is a god.

If our fate is already predetermined, then by definition we have no free will. However, if our fates are not predetermined and we do indeed have free will, and if there is a God, it's quite possible he could see every possible future for every choice we could ever make. All I know is that I feel like I have free will, so I'm inclined to say the future is not determined, and our choices (possibly along with chance events) can shape it.

 

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If our fate is already pretermined, then by definition we have no free will. However, if our fates are not predetermined and we do indeed have free will, and if there is a God, it's quite possible he could see every possible future for every choice we could ever make. All I know is that I feel like I have free will, so I'm inclined to say the future is not determined, and our choices (possibly along with chance events) can shape it.

Fate is not pretermined ,God knows the future and what you are going to do , you have a choice what to do.

 

[Napalmbrain]

Fate is not pretermined ,God knows the future and what you are going to do , you have a choice what to do.

I don't think the future is determined. What I mean is, if God is real and he knows the future, then wouldn't that imply that the future is already determined?

 

[metroid#41]

dude i totaly agree with u...ur right aboutevery thing u said

 

[Sovieto]

saying I need prayer is as offensive to me as im sure saying that you needed to read more books other then the bible was to you, I’m not sure you understand that or not, and I was trying to point that out with an interlaced language. But I take it back for what’s it worth, as I don’t want this to turn into a flame war, but saying you will pray for me is implying that somehow I am lost and confused, when this is not the case. It’s demeaning.

About the acceptance bit, I never said you can’t get along with people other then Christians. I feel that its you who is jumping to conclusions. What I was talking about was more of an absolute rather then a practicality, as I feel Christians deal alot with absolutes, and black and white, good and evil.



"nope mere mortal can see the future."


its not that im confused about reality as we know it, but its Lines like this that confused me about what you were saying to say. I thought you were talking about predicting with a educated guess.



If thats what you wish i can grant it.
do you wish this?

umm i dont know? what do you mean..

 

[White-Wolf]

Fate is not pretermined ,God knows the future and what you are going to do , you have a choice what to do.

So fate is not predetermined... but god knows what’s going to happen? If god knows whats going to happen it already has been predetermined. Isn’t this a contradiction? How is it not? Its like saying I can fly underground. Or that I’m going to light the room with darkness. If the future is known by god, free will would be changing the future as god knows it. Free will is choice, and no choice exists, if that choice has already been made by the fact it has been preordained by god. If someone does exert free will over god, then god is fallible and not a reliable source on all things of truth.

Everyone knows how I believe fate works, theirs no point in saying what I believe. If god ever told you that you have free will, and that he knows everything, well he is lying at least once, or your lying to yourselves.

Morality must be handed down by gods, our current republican government in the USA, powered by family values, isn’t showing a good example of gods morality.

I think people are getting confused with what free will is. I’m not saying god forces us to do anything, but if the future is known we have no choice to change what will inevitably happen. And as I said above, changing what will happen shows that god doesn’t know what’s going to happen, and makes him less godly.

It comes down to, that god cannot be simultaneously all love, and all powerful and all knowing. Maybe in a world without humans, he could be, but when dealing with humans, he has given up one of these things.


Sovieto, can you snip my quote smaller so i know what part your talking about?

 

[ABC]

This thread is longer than the Bible. Sheesh.

 

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It comes down to, that god cannot be simultaneously all love, and all powerful and all knowing. Maybe in a world without humans, he could be, but when dealing with humans, he has given up one of these things.

And why can't He be ?

 

[White-Wolf]

And why can't He be ?

I already said why at least 7 times, were you reading? :wtf: maybe you should reread my posts about free will. Or better yet Maybe you should tell me how knowing the future does not inhibit free will, that we can discuss this. Or how god CAN be these things, through an argument that doesn’t involve something concerning belief or because god told you.

Please explain to me how choice exists if future is pre ordained? no one seems to be able to argue this point. Explain to me what you think a choice is? If god knows what’s going to happen to me, then all the choices I will ever make have been decided at the dawn of time. Doesn’t it make him not all loving if he does nothing? If you know your friends going to get hurt, and don’t stop him, are you really is friend?

Explain this in a way someone that doesn’t have faith in god can understand, with a good argument. Faith cant be argued against or for, because faith is ultimately putting your trust in something you cannot perceive. If you can perceive it, its not faith anymore. Theirs no arguing faith, because faith is not based on facts or logic or ideas, its based on feelings, and I cannot tell you what you feel, but I at the very edge of reason try to argue that something, anything, that sees what I am about to do takes away my power to choose on the contrary. But if I succeed on choosing the contrary, the being that saw the future must be wrong.

Please show me the flaw in my argument, if any.

 

[I_Dont_Know859]

I already said why at least 7 times, were you reading? :wtf: maybe you should reread my posts about free will. Or better yet Maybe you should tell me how knowing the future does not inhibit free will, that we can discuss this. Or how god CAN be these things, through an argument that doesn’t involve something concerning belief or because god told you.

So your asking someone on a forum about christian religion to explain something without using what god said in our bible and not concerning our beliefs. Hmmmm. What do you want to me to write out the formula for the space time continum here? Think about that last sentence you made. You want us to explain our Christian Beleifs on a Christian forum without using what god told us. The bible teaches us the ways of God and you dont want us to use it:wtf: .

Please explain to me how choice exists if future is pre ordained? no one seems to be able to argue this point. Explain to me what you think a choice is? If god knows what’s going to happen to me, then all the choices I will ever make have been decided at the dawn of time. Doesn’t it make him not all loving if he does nothing? If you know your friends going to get hurt, and don’t stop him, are you really is friend?

Maybe you should reread the posts i explained it right here in a previous post: <<<ok the best way i can explain this to you is that yes are fate can be seen by God. God knows everything we will do from giving us free will. Therefore, he isnt consciously controlling us. He is letting us do our own thing while knowing what we will do before hand. God knows our fate in the end. ok think of it this way god gave us free will and looked into the future to see what we would do with it therefore technically our free will isnt taken away, ALL GOD DID WAS LOOK AHEAD OF TIME. Our actions have already been foreseen by the gift of free will. If almighty God wants to look into the future, who's to stop him. I guess it is just down to what you call it, but it sounds like free will to me. I'm ending my agrument here because like i said its hard to witness over the internet. But to a logical person i believe this is very possible if you believe there is a god.>>> Answered you right there, even makes sense for those with out faith. It all works out perfectly, even for a nonbelieve just assuming God exists. I'm sorry white wolf, but if you say this is absolutely impossible and contraditory, that would be pretty ignorant even from a scientific perspective.

Explain this in a way someone that doesn’t have faith in god can understand, with a good argument. Faith cant be argued against or for, because faith is ultimately putting your trust in something you cannot perceive. If you can perceive it, its not faith anymore.

Yeah its to bad us mortals can see into the future huh? it wouldnt be a problem then. luckily we still got good ol' faith. You would God could do if he wanted? He could come up to me and say tomorrow on your way to school that you usually take a drunk driver will hit you and kill you. I then would take another route to school i wouldnt normally take. Free will and foreseeing the future can work together after all and this doesnt deny God power but show how amazing it is.

Theirs no arguing faith, because faith is not based on facts or logic or ideas, its based on feelings, and I cannot tell you what you feel, but I at the very edge of reason try to argue that something, anything, that sees what I am about to do takes away my power to choose on the contrary. But if I succeed on choosing the contrary, the being that saw the future must be wrong.

Please show me the flaw in my argument, if any.

OK i'll make this as simple as i can for you:
1.God gave us free will.
2.Lets say God wonders to himself "Hmmm, I wonder what Chris (my name) is going to do today. with that free will i gave him. Let me see how his day goes.
3.Looks into future and sees he puts on whites socks, a black t-shirt, and blue jeans. For lunch he goes to Wendy's for some quick fast food off the wonderful 99 cent menu. Blah blah blah comes home goes to bed and falls asleep at exactly 11:45.
4.Chris starts his day doing exactly as God foresaw cuz he's God (get this straight hes not predicting but foreseeing) the allpoweful being, creater of the universe and everything that exist, limitless powers, you get the picture right?
5.Ok Chris has the free will to choose what he's wearing today, but white wolf god forbid God just so happens to be curious and wants to see ahead of time. Obviously it is an action of free will for me to use MY BRAIN to decide what im going to wear and god wanted to know is what i would do before i did it, its so simple. I mean come on, how can you even make the agrument the you could do something contrary unless you can read Gods mind. I may not be able to prove faith but how are you going to prove doing something contrary to God. You wanted a good solid agrument and now you got one. Free will and looking into the future tie in together and God can interfere if he wants to like he did so many times, especially in the old testiment, talking to people or whatever. Harassing the pharoah of Egypt to let his people go by sending plagues so that the pharoah would change his mind (free will). Of course God knew exactly what plagues to send to to help convince the pharoah but our God is all-knowing. Good stuff.

 

[White-Wolf]

OK i'll make this as simple as i can for you:
1.God gave us free will.
2.Lets say God wonders to himself "Hmmm, I wonder what Chris (my name) is going to do today. with that free will i gave him. Let me see how his day goes.
3.Looks into future and sees he puts on whites socks, a black t-shirt, and blue jeans. For lunch he goes to Wendy's for some quick fast food off the wonderful 99 cent menu. Blah blah blah comes home goes to bed and falls asleep at exactly 11:45.
4.Chris starts his day doing exactly as God foresaw cuz he's God (get this straight hes not predicting but foreseeing) the allpoweful being, creater of the universe and everything that exist, limitless powers, you get the picture right?
5.Ok Chris has the free will to choose what he's wearing today, but white wolf god forbid God just so happens to be curious and wants to see ahead of time. Obviously it is an action of free will for me to use MY BRAIN to decide what im going to wear and god wanted to know is what i would do before i did it, its so simple. I mean come on, how can you even make the agrument the you could do something contrary unless you can read Gods mind. I may not be able to prove faith but how are you going to prove doing something contrary to God. You wanted a good solid agrument and now you got one. Free will and looking into the future tie in together and God can interfere if he wants to like he did so many times, especially in the old testiment, talking to people or whatever. Harassing the pharoah of Egypt to let his people go by sending plagues so that the pharoah would change his mind (free will). Of course God knew exactly what plagues to send to to help convince the pharoah but our God is all-knowing. Good stuff.

well, to be honest, i was looking for the word Compatibilism. that would have done it for me.

here is what wiki says on th issue.

Compatibilism, most famously championed by Hume, is a theory that suggests that free will and determinism are in fact compatible. According to Hume, free will should not be understood as an absolute ability to have chosen differently under exactly the same inner and outer circumstances. Rather, it is a hypothetical ability to have chosen differently if one had been differently psychologically disposed by some different beliefs or desires. That is, when one says that one could either continue to read this page or to delete it, one doesn't really mean that both choices are compatible with the complete state of the world right now, but rather that if one had desired to delete it one would have, even though as a matter of fact one actually desires to continue reading it, and therefore that is what will actually happen.

Hume also maintains that free acts are not uncaused (or mysteriously self-caused as Kant would have it) but rather caused by our choices as determined by our beliefs, desires, and by our characters. While a decision making process exists in Hume's determinism, this process is governed by a causal chain of events. For example, one may make the decision to support Wikipedia, but that decision is determined by the conditions that existed prior to the decision being made.

One libertarian or incompatibilist reaction to this claim holds that "free will" refers to genuine (e.g. absolute, ultimate) alternate possibilities for beliefs, desires or actions, rather than merely counterfactual ones. In the absence of such possibilities, the belief that free will confers responsibility is held to be false. However, a compatibilist may respond with the argument mentioned above stating that non-determinism is also incompatible with free will, so the libertarian is no better off. The compatibilist may also argue on conceptual grounds that "free will" has nothing to do with ultimate causes on a grand metaphysical scale, but instead only refers to an apparent fact of human psychology (i.e., that conscious mental states seem to play an active role in determining the choices that are made).

Compatibilists often continue and argue that determinism is not just compatible with free will, but actually necessary for it. If one's actions aren't determined by one's beliefs, desires, and character, then it seems that they aren't one's real actions.


I myself am a Incompatibilism

wiki

Incompatibilism means that the notion of a deterministic universe is completely at odds with the notion that people have a free will. It can be treated in at least two ways: by libertarians, who deny that the universe is deterministic through-and-through, and the hard determinists, who deny that any free will exists.

out of those i would probably be a deterministic.

i see my free will expanding as far as my imagination can wonder with no limitations. and no god can stop me. not even yours. becarefull what you let yourself be swallowed by... ever play breath of fire 2? hehehe

 

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i see my free will expanding as far as my imagination can wonder with no limitations. and no god can stop me. not even yours.

Hes not just ours but yours too :smilewinkgrin: .