Christians

[XtremeKilling]

I personally dont believe in Christianity for the following reasons:

If heaven exsists, then why are people so afraid of dying?

And its a fact that the sun will die out in about 2.3 billion years.
When that happens, are they gona stop receiving people to heaven?

If christainity is a TRUE religion, why would they say ONLY Christians go to heaven?

So, if humans go to heaven, animals go too? We are no diff. then animals, we are no higher rank then them, we are equal. What made God Choose only HUMANS go to heaven? What happens to the animals that die?

Have you ever sat down and thought of the word Christianity and wut pops to mind?
-Greed?
Yes, greed is the word, They say you can only be forgive for the sins u made by going to church, being chris. , praying.

Wut happens to the other people that arent? They burn in hell because they arent chris.? Because they are innocent? And i had thought Chris. is Justice, Isnt that wut they said in the bible? yet the innocent unchris. people burn, while a Killer prays for forgiveness and goes to heaven.

I'm not saying chiristianity is bad or anything, but what makes of it?

We based every single crap to that religion, The Year System
i.e. this year is 2007, so its 2007 years after jesus was born.

Explain these reasons above.
-Kevin

 

[Brawny]

Yay i can't believe i didn't find this thread earlier... religion is one of my favorite debates. Me personally, i am agnostic. Meaning i don't believe in a single god but i am willing to accept the idea there is a god. I think the idea of finding our "creator" is beyond our grasp. Just as ants can never understand gravity on planet earth simply because their brains do not have that capacity, we will never understand the why and how of our universe and therefore our existence. I have to agree with the original idea of this forum saying that "no one should live in fear of sinning." Who is to truly say what is right and what is wrong? We all have a conscience and i believe that will always tell us the true right and wrong, but to continuously clash with fellow man over who is right seems pointless to me when the truth is NO ONE KNOWS FOR SURE!

Calling the bible fictional was unnecessary because i could see where some people would take offence to that. But to all those who do take offence try to keep an open mind. I have a theory about the bible; i'm not sure that i believe it 100% but as i have previously stated the only thing i 100% believe is that we may never know. I find it somewhat ironic that the bible outlines the main laws in society today. I believe that it could have possibly been a way of creating order in an otherwise messed up world. lol (for lack of a better term) Don't lie, don't cheat, don't steal, don't kill, etc. These are all part of the 10 commandments and the overall idea of every story in the bible correct? When the bible came out there was no law, no real order to society and i think it could have been a way to keep people in line. The fear of going to "hell" still scares people today and it would have been a brilliant way to bring order to an otherwise chaotic society.

There are however things that make a person wonder if there was a design. Take for example the number pie, pie can be found all around us in the environment and no one knows why. Coincidence? Maybe not. But to claim we know the creator of this number is a statement based on word of mouth. No one alive today was there when the bible was written. It has been passed down though our ancestors and therefore religious beliefs are based on word of mouth. This also explains why most children take on the religion of their parents and family.

Overall i believe we should stop closing our minds in ignorance. I'm not saying anyone should accept a new god but don't judge others as "wrong." Take a good look at what you believe and why.

To me, agnostics kind of back away and take the easy way out. Saying we cannot know anything is wrong. Pretty sure that there are many things that we know about our universe. There is a moon, we live on Earth. There, we can know something.

When I read "when the Bible came out" I lauged. The Bible was written over thousands of years and is continuously changing. The fact that it does have such a unifying theme among many different genres suggests that it is not just a man-made thing.

Even cooler than Pi (-e) is Phi. Look it up sometime.

Why do you say "word of mouth"? The things that people say is from the Bible, which last time I looked was a book....with words.....that were written.

I do know why I believe in Christianity. But, saying that I'm right at the same time you are right on Religion makes no sense to me. There are many different religions that obviously contradict eachother. How do you say that one is true while the other is false. By you saying you can't understand God and me saying I can, there has to be some argument there. YOU ARE WRONG there I said it. In my eyes you are wrong. To you I am wrong. There is nothing wrong with disagreeing. Everyone can't be right.

I personally dont believe in Christianity for the following reasons:

1. If heaven exsists, then why are people so afraid of dying?

2. And its a fact that the sun will die out in about 2.3 billion years.
When that happens, are they gona stop receiving people to heaven?

3. If christainity is a TRUE religion, why would they say ONLY Christians go to heaven?

4. So, if humans go to heaven, animals go too? We are no diff. then animals, we are no higher rank then them, we are equal. What made God Choose only HUMANS go to heaven? What happens to the animals that die?

5. Have you ever sat down and thought of the word Christianity and wut pops to mind?
-Greed?
Yes, greed is the word, They say you can only be forgive for the sins u made by going to church, being chris. , praying.

6. Wut happens to the other people that arent? They burn in hell because they arent chris.? Because they are innocent? And i had thought Chris. is Justice, Isnt that wut they said in the bible? yet the innocent unchris. people burn, while a Killer prays for forgiveness and goes to heaven.

7. I'm not saying chiristianity is bad or anything, but what makes of it?

8. We based every single crap to that religion, The Year System
i.e. this year is 2007, so its 2007 years after jesus was born.

Explain these reasons above.
-Kevin

1. That is a good question. If they do believe in an afterlife, they might be worried about going to hell. If they do not, then they are afraid of their "awesome" life on earth ending.

2. Jesus would probably have returned by then. People on earth would have died long before this because of the sun being much smaller. Gravity, heat, etc.

3. Why is this so hard to understand for people? What about the word "TRUE" has to do with being universal? You are a Christian if you believe jesus is your only savior. Look at the thief on the cross. He had to be pretty notorious for being crucified and he still went to heaven.

4. Humans are better than animals. At least you didn't say ants like that other person. Gaz I believe? not sure. Animals don't go to heaven. Same as what Atheists believe about humans when they die.

5. NO!, same thief as above + all people at the same time as Christ did not go to church as there wasn't one. What do you consider praying? getting on knees and ripping your clothes off and crying? NO! it is asking God for forgiveness and being truly sorry for your sins. I would say that Atheists are more greedy. "Be the one with the most money and get out".

6. That aren't ......? And no person is ever innocent.

7. This makes no sense.

Finally 8. Get off your high horse. When the gregorian calendar was invented, he chose the most influential person of his day. Do you get Christmas presents? Do you get chocolate for Easter? If anyone should be complaining it is Christians for other people pirateing (sp?) our two most important holidays. BTW, the calendar is off by a couple years.

"Who's that tramping over my bridge?"

 

[Bulldogxx831]

This thread should be closed we all have opinions end of story. Catholics just over advertise their religon. I can have the same type of argument condoning slavery and I'm sure you won't change your mind. Just accept differences. Three things you never talk about are: religon, money making, and political views.

Damn I wrote a lot from my Wii.

 

[Brawny]

This is in the LOUNGE, some people are asking meaningful questions. Also, you should be banned for having such a potentially offensive user title.

 

[Rabid_Toaster]

good answers to Xtrmklling's questions Brawny :thumbsup:
i have to say, i agree with all of those answers :yesnod:

 

[Bulldogxx831]

This is in the LOUNGE, some people are asking meaningful questions. Also, you should be banned for having such a potentially offensive user title.

BANNED?!? I love you guys especially you Brawny. Just because I offend your religon doesn't mean you need to pick on me. I was stating my opinion just like you. I do not wish any "bad Ju-Ju-" upon you yet you immediatly wish to ban me. I have made previous comments on this thread before and you have not said a word. If it seriously does offend you then I shall remove it at once but don't go around just saying things.

 

[Squall7]

Personally, I think this debate has kinda gone on long enough. Nobody is going to change their minds and it's becoming more and more personal. Criticising and questioning a concept/perspective is fine, but I think it's more become an issue of "I'm going to prove you wrong" recently. Nothing will come out of that mentality, even if the eternal question could be answered, because the only way you'd be right is if you found out something or thought of something that has never been brought up.

I'd also like to add, that Brawny, no hard feelings were intended with my comments. What I said was never based at you personally. However, it has not changed my standpoint (although I don't think you, personally were one to force your values on other people, and to that I thank you), as I expect your standpoint was never altered either.

I say "Live and let live". And on that note, I will retire for the night.

P.S. I disagree with the idea that animals are lower than humans. I feel that we are animals, and the only difference is that were are sapient. It's also quite strange to think that no matter how good a dog is, s/he won't get into heaven. Is it our ability to recognise wrong from right without being conditioned (also arguable) really what gets us into heaven? Also, I'd be interested in finding out which passages exactly state that animals don't go to heaven, and also why...

 

[Kelso]

To me, agnostics kind of back away and take the easy way out. Saying we cannot know anything is wrong. Pretty sure that there are many things that we know about our universe. There is a moon, we live on Earth. There, we can know something.

When I read "when the Bible came out" I lauged. The Bible was written over thousands of years and is continuously changing. The fact that it does have such a unifying theme among many different genres suggests that it is not just a man-made thing.

Even cooler than Pi (-e) is Phi. Look it up sometime.

Why do you say "word of mouth"? The things that people say is from the Bible, which last time I looked was a book....with words.....that were written.

I do know why I believe in Christianity. But, saying that I'm right at the same time you are right on Religion makes no sense to me. There are many different religions that obviously contradict eachother. How do you say that one is true while the other is false. By you saying you can't understand God and me saying I can, there has to be some argument there. YOU ARE WRONG there I said it. In my eyes you are wrong. To you I am wrong. There is nothing wrong with disagreeing. Everyone can't be right.



1. That is a good question. If they do believe in an afterlife, they might be worried about going to hell. If they do not, then they are afraid of their "awesome" life on earth ending.

2. Jesus would probably have returned by then. People on earth would have died long before this because of the sun being much smaller. Gravity, heat, etc.

3. Why is this so hard to understand for people? What about the word "TRUE" has to do with being universal? You are a Christian if you believe jesus is your only savior. Look at the thief on the cross. He had to be pretty notorious for being crucified and he still went to heaven.

4. Humans are better than animals. At least you didn't say ants like that other person. Gaz I believe? not sure. Animals don't go to heaven. Same as what Atheists believe about humans when they die.

5. NO!, same thief as above + all people at the same time as Christ did not go to church as there wasn't one. What do you consider praying? getting on knees and ripping your clothes off and crying? NO! it is asking God for forgiveness and being truly sorry for your sins. I would say that Atheists are more greedy. "Be the one with the most money and get out".

6. That aren't ......? And no person is ever innocent.

7. This makes no sense.

Finally 8. Get off your high horse. When the gregorian calendar was invented, he chose the most influential person of his day. Do you get Christmas presents? Do you get chocolate for Easter? If anyone should be complaining it is Christians for other people pirateing (sp?) our two most important holidays. BTW, the calendar is off by a couple years.

Oh boy where to begin, I can see u didn’t really get a thing I said.

1.Yes we know we live on earth and there is a moon but do u realize how very little that is? Compared to the vastness of the universe we know NOTHING! This is what I meant by the ant analogy btw, I was simply illustrating the immense size of our universe compared to a human. I never said that “ants go to heaven” or what ever. You misinterpreted that and so to use that in an argument against the idea of animals in heaven is irrelevant.

2. Why would the idea of the bible having a unifying theme make it not man made? Shakespeare’s plays and writings tend to have a universal and unifying theme and we know these are written by man.

3. By word of mouth I didn’t mean that the bible wasn’t in writing. You have misinterpreted what I have written. What I meant was that no one was there to see it “written” or how ever you want to put it. It has been passed down through the generations and therefore no one can claim to know its true origins. We simply accept it because that is what our ancestors gave us. But there are plenty of stories being passed through generations… is Little Red Ridding Hood fiction or fact? I’m not trying to attack those who do believe in the writings in the bible I am merely pointing out a possibility.

4. I’m not sure I understand what you are arguing at this point. You are saying that I can’t understand god and you can therefore we must argue? I can see an argument for is there a god or isn’t there but can a person be wrong for not understanding? Also if you would look back on what I posted, at no point did I dismiss the idea that Christianity could be 100% correct, there for I never said YOU WERE WRONG.

5. Lastly I would like to ask what makes humans better then animals? We are all made up of the same matter. Is this being based on our superior intellect and our ability to communicate? There are many other animals that can communicate within their species. What about animals that are superior over others? Monkeys have larger brains and more intellect then cats. (for example) So why just humans? Because we are the MOST superior on the planet? That sounds kind of cruel to me. I thought god was all loving? But again I am not denying the possibility because I cannot PROVE otherwise. But this brings me to the point of why I am agnostic. I have not seen any proof of anything.

6. Some interesting points regarding religious debate if anyone is interested…. http://home.teleport.com/~packham/veith.htm


Finally I would like to say to anyone getting worked up over this conversation… GET OVER IT! This is simply a way to hear other people’s point of views. I’m open to anyone’s suggestions and love to debate. But coming into this forum you had to suspect there would be some who would not share your views, and if this makes you truly angry I think you are missing the whole point.

 

[Brawny]

Oh boy where to begin, I can see u didn’t really get a thing I said.

1.Yes we know we live on earth and there is a moon but do u realize how very little that is? Compared to the vastness of the universe we know NOTHING! This is what I meant by the ant analogy btw, I was simply illustrating the immense size of our universe compared to a human. I never said that “ants go to heaven” or what ever. You misinterpreted that and so to use that in an argument against the idea of animals in heaven is irrelevant.

2. Why would the idea of the bible having a unifying theme make it not man made? Shakespeare’s plays and writings tend to have a universal and unifying theme and we know these are written by man.

3. By word of mouth I didn’t mean that the bible wasn’t in writing. You have misinterpreted what I have written. What I meant was that no one was there to see it “written” or how ever you want to put it. It has been passed down through the generations and therefore no one can claim to know its true origins. We simply accept it because that is what our ancestors gave us. But there are plenty of stories being passed through generations… is Little Red Ridding Hood fiction or fact? I’m not trying to attack those who do believe in the writings in the bible I am merely pointing out a possibility.

4. I’m not sure I understand what you are arguing at this point. You are saying that I can’t understand god and you can therefore we must argue? I can see an argument for is there a god or isn’t there but can a person be wrong for not understanding? Also if you would look back on what I posted, at no point did I dismiss the idea that Christianity could be 100% correct, there for I never said YOU WERE WRONG.

5. Lastly I would like to ask what makes humans better then animals? We are all made up of the same matter. Is this being based on our superior intellect and our ability to communicate? There are many other animals that can communicate within their species. What about animals that are superior over others? Monkeys have larger brains and more intellect then cats. (for example) So why just humans? Because we are the MOST superior on the planet? That sounds kind of cruel to me. I thought god was all loving? But again I am not denying the possibility because I cannot PROVE otherwise. But this brings me to the point of why I am agnostic. I have not seen any proof of anything.

6. Some interesting points regarding religious debate if anyone is interested…. http://home.teleport.com/~packham/veith.htm


Finally I would like to say to anyone getting worked up over this conversation… GET OVER IT! This is simply a way to hear other people’s point of views. I’m open to anyone’s suggestions and love to debate. But coming into this forum you had to suspect there would be some who would not share your views, and if this makes you truly angry I think you are missing the whole point.

For #1, you say that the size of the universe means we can't understand God and I say that it proves a God that is beyond our comprehension, but not knowledge completely.

2. Shakespeare wasn't written over a period of thousands of years nor does it span many genres.

3. Yah, I knew what you meant, I was just being kinda gay.

4. I don't feel like explaining myself. I barely know what I meant. I must have been in a super word-twisty state when I wrote that.

5. Well, we alone are made in God's image, but I can see the reason for objection when you believe we are all here by chance (not nessesarily you kelso).

Your last point: Totally agree with it. Yay!

you have not said a word. If it seriously does offend you then I shall remove it at once but don't go around just saying things.

Pretty sure I've been talking on this thread for quite a while and yes, I am offended by your user title. I hope others are too.

(although I don't think you, personally were one to force your values on other people, and to that I thank you)

No, I thank you.

 

[Kelso]

Haha to Brawny, I'm glad we got one agreement. lol.

What about the number pie though... has anyone done any extensive research into it cuz I’m REALLY interested. I mean i tend to lean more towards the atheist side i do realize that, but the occurrences of the number pie on our planet makes me consider otherwise. I find it hard to believe it’s a coincidence that that SPECIFIC number occurs so often in nature. I wish I still had that list of “natural occurrences of pie” and if anyone does have it plz send , if not I’ll get another one from my calculus teacher next semester and post it. It’s really cool.

 

[Brawny]

i'm pretty sure its phi also e. just google it. Basically any properties of math are pretty cool and anyone who says that they just happened because of random mutations in atoms are weird. Things like that confuse me.

 

[Kelso]

I have never been able to spell :frown2: i check pretty much everything on word B4 posting here... numbers is my language. But i did look on google... didn't find it

 

[Brawny]

go to http://www.goldennumber.net/

Pi=3.14
Phi=1.62
phi=.62
e=2.72

 

[match002001]

Okay I'm not going to read the entire thread I'm going to make my point from the original post.

Believe what you want I don't f-ing care, you can believe there is a god or just don't. The point is that what you believe in makes you feel right then believe in it. If you feel as though the system is flawed in ways that you can explain that do that.

this world was not created, whether or not by god or science, to believe in what you want to believe.

Do I sound like a hippy yet?

 

[tank]

I'm a scientist at heart, I want rational proof of a phenomenon. Prove to me that God exists, and that everything he did in the Bible and I'll believe it. I'm not a big fan of the whole "blind faith" thing. I can't just hear something that far fetched and believe it to be true.

The way I look at it is that the Bible is a great teaching tool for humanity. There are lessons in it that should be followed. But has anyone ever stopped to think that's what the Bible is? Is the Bible a true account of actual events, or simply a massive piece of rhetoric created thousands of years ago to give people advice on how to live? A "hitch hikers guide to a happy life" if you will.

another point, look at Scientology. A Sci-Fi writer made it up. He just writesa book and millions of people all of a sudden follow this religion. Who says Christianity isn't just a really old, better planned version?

I also don't like organized religion. It seems like such a sham, a way to control the order of the masses. And weather or not you like to believe it, there is corruption in churches. Donation money being taken and used for other purposes than to serve the church and its fellowship, the obvious scandal with some priests. I went to church until i was 10 and I got nothing out of it...... ever. I fell asleep half the time, I never paid attention in Sunday school and eventually once my parents decided to give me the choice I told them "No, I don't want to goto church anymore"



I'm not trying to sway anyone away from what they believe. Christianity does not give my life fulfillment. No religion gives my life fulfillment yet. However, I have done some reading and Buddhism is my kind of religion. Not the whole religion, I don't believe in a rebirth once enlightenment is reached. But Buddhists believe in the Nobel Eightfold Paths as the way to the cessation of suffering. They believe that if you follow these paths then you will end suffering in your life and find enlightenment

1. Right Speech - One speaks in a non hurtful, not exaggerated, truthful way
2. Right Actions - Wholesome action, avoiding action that would do harm
3. Right Livelihood - One's way of livelihood does not harm in any way oneself or others; directly or indirectly
4. Right Effort/Exercise - One makes an effort to improve
5. Right Mindfulness/Awareness - Mental ability to see things for what they are with clear consciousness
6. Right Concentration - Being aware of the present reality within oneself, without any craving or aversion.
7. Right Thoughts - Change in the pattern of thinking.
8. Right Understanding - Understanding reality as it is, not just as it appears to be.

(Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism#The_Noble_Eightfold_Path)


Now those sound like eight logical, believable steps to having a good life. each of those things you can think of an everyday example of how to follow them, and how if more and more people did the same there would be more happy people.

Like I said, I'm not really a Buddhist, I don't follow Buddhism whole heartedly, I just find those eight steps a very rational way to make myself and those around me more happy. And so far I have been trying the best I can to abide by them.