Christians

[viperjason]

Do you believe creation was 6 24 hour days?

I'm sorry but I have to correct this little quote.
It was not 6 EARTH days it was 6 God days. If you read there is also another point in the bible which says 1 day with God is 1000 years with man.
Another thing, the first line in the bible should have been translated "the earth became void" not "the earth was void", God made the earth void, and it was 6,000 years to re-build the earth.

If you wish I will quote bible verses to back this up, but since most here dont believe the bible, it wouldnt matter much.

 

[motherbrainrulez]

i didnt read the whole thread but here you go http://godisimaginary.com

 

[Brawny]

whoa, im on the same page as you, I was asking someone else what they thought. the one you said is 2 Peter 3:8

Also, here is a quote from that linky "God has never left any physical evidence of his existence on earth." I think i'm going to have a freaking heart attack. (its in the leprachaun thing. Another: "The resurrected Jesus has never appeared to anyone."

Another article here brought up another thing: proving God with the scientific method. Seeing as science deals with things in the physical plane, one cannot prove anything in the supernatural plane with it.

And another:

Proof #19 - Notice that you ignore Jesus

Jesus made a number of very clear statements about money and wealth in the Bible. For example:

Matthew 6:19

Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

Matthew 6:24

No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and Money.

Matthew 19:21-24

Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth. Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

Matthew 19:28-29

Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life.

Luke 9:23-25

Then he said to them all: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will save it. What good is it for a man to gain the whole world, and yet lose or forfeit his very self?

Matt 13: 22

The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful.

Hebrews 13:5

Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said, "Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you."

Phil 2:3

Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves.

Acts 2:44-45

All the believers were together and had everything in common. Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need.

The message is clear. If you want to follow Jesus, you need to "sell your possessions and give to the poor." It is a very simple message, and easy to do. Have you done it? The fact that you are reading this page would indicate that you have not. Chances are you own a computer, pay for an Internet connection every month, live in a home or apartment, have a car, etc. In other words, you live a life at a level of wealth unimaginable in Jesus' time. Meanwhile, billions of people on the planet live in startling, abject poverty.

Why don't you sell everything and follow Jesus, as he requests in the Bible? The reason is simple: Jesus and God are imaginary, and you know it. If Jesus were real, you would do what he says.

another person trying to interpret the whole Bible in exactly the same manner:nonod:

Edit # I lost count: Praying for absurd things to test prayer is crazy. Why do people think that a prayer always has to be answered "yes" sometimes we get a "no", not nessesarily a cold shoulder.

 

[Brawny]

sorry for the triple.

 

[Brawny]

Since it is long, I will stop editing it. Deal with the Double.

To motherbrainrulez: did you even read the whole thing or did you just quick google it? Many, many atheists will laugh at the points made, I think (yes I do know a lot). LMAO horrible debating skills.

I do have to wonder who knows the Bible like that and is yet so ignorant.

 

[motherbrainrulez]

i read the whole thing and actually it does have to be answered yes
jesus says pray for it and you will get it, believe you have it and you will

 

[viperjason]

No actually he said you will get what you need. not what you want. Two different things there.

 

[Brawny]

That is just a horrible, horrible interpretation of the Bible

 

[NateTheGreat]

Satan did not turn into a snake until after he tempted Eve.

So a man turned into a snake? That's quite realistic.:O

"you bet it was logical and there's nothing wrong with that if you have faith in it." You could say the same thing about Christianity.

Um...I was saying that about Christianity.

I myself do not believe that you should interpret Genesis extremely literally. It is very symbolic.

How do you know which parts are supposed to be interpreted symbolic and which are to be taken literally? Ah yes, you can't. It says no where in the bible "take this literally" nor "take this all metaphorically." So, what if I believed the bible was nothing but metaphorical? Would that make me any less Christian (if I was, that is)?

 

[Squall7]

This makes no sense to me. You're arguing that changing basic ideas is better than having strong core beliefs to encounter new things with? You want religion to incorporate everything to make it correct? Christianity doesn't ignore or reject homosexuality or female church leaders. Homosexuality is not new. It is mentioned in Genesis, before "science" starts. Christianity condemns homosexuality, not homosexuals. Acting on the temptation is sin, not the temptation itself. Just to get that out of the way.

It's the fact that everything encountered in science is absorbed. Science is true because it seeks truth. Religion is stoic because it's based on things that cannot be proved/disproved and demands that people follow it despite this. It was scientific fact that the world was the centre of the universe, until we found it not to be true. There are still some 'Young Earth' Christians that refuse to adopt the facts of billions of years passing of existence, believing rather that the Earth is a only around 6000 years old. How can an idea or an act be condemned without condemning the people that 'choose' (as some Chrstians say) to perform said act of idea? And why is it that a lot of Christians believe that despite the many in the gay community saying that it isn't a choice (which it isn't), believe the contrary (i.e. Some homosexuals say they don't 'choose' to be attracted to the same sex, whilst the Church maintains that they do actually choose)?

Objection to females in office is not mentioned in the Bible either. It is just a tradition that older, more stubborn people accept. Again, I am Christian Reformed so we place much less importance on tradition than Catholics (going by people I know, so corrections are welcome). Please think of some more issues that Christianity has ignored.

Are you asking me to provide examples of things you have personally ignored/rejected over Christianity as a whole (I thought we were meant to be talking about Christianity as a whole. I do not intend my comments to be taken as a personal attack)?

To sum it up incase I rambled too much, you want a religion that changes its basic beliefs so that it doesn't offend you? Is this correct?

No. I'm just stating that science is designed so that it is completely correct. Everything that is not science theory is fact. Gravity is fact. Subatomic particles are fact. Quarks are fact. It's merely the theory that is changed, and evolved. There is only "Theory" in religion because it is based on belief rather than fact. Because it is not based on fact, it cannot be proven or disproven, and therefore nothing can really evolve (in a scientific way). Since it cannot evolve in the same way that science can, we find people "theorising" whilst claiming fact that everyone else is going to hell except them, because obviously they have a special link to God and God let's them know that they're on the right track, but everyone else isn't. Christianity is based on the theory that Jesus was the son of God and God in carnate. Jewish theory is based on the concept that Jesus wasn't the son of God at all. The saviour of the world is still to come. Fact is, is that:
a. The "virgin" Mary had to have something to spark off a baby. That is proven in every case of pregnancy before and since - the body cannot reproduce by itself, or else the organism would be a clone of Mary. This would mean that Mary wasn't actually a virgin. Perhaps God broke the laws of physics for the sake of "saving the world", who knows? How about the concept of Noah's ark? For a start:
a. Where did all of the water come from?
b. Where did all of the water go?
c. How did he know that every single animal that he 'saved' would be able to procreate?
d. How did he get one of every animal before the flood, when there are animals all around the world? How did he save marcupials (Kangaroos, Koalas etc)?
e. How did he get the raw material and build enough room in there for two of every animal and food supplies?
f. How did he stop animals from actually eating each other?

If one's to say that Christianity gives them 'meaning' in their life and the feeling of security, then why defend a book that is obviously full of metaphor and similies? It's not the book itself that sustains said meaning or security, heck it isn't even the teachings. It's the belief in the God refered to in the teachings. More importantly, it's the belief in God's existence. Why is it then that people take parts of the bible and use it as 'evidence' to back up their own beliefs? "You do bad things, you're going to hell!". "Satan has made you do this". Why? If you have that meaning and security in your life, then why have passages from the bible to 'back up' what you say?

Personally, I think religion has done more harm than good. How can something that has condemned people (whilst simultaneously taught that all shall be forgiven) be good? A gay priest has an arguement with a straight priest. The straight priest tells the gay priest he's going to hell. The gay priest tells the straight priest that God loves him the way he is. They're the same religion. Which one is correct? Which one of them is actually backing up his 'knowledge' with his own feelings? How can one tell? In the end, nobody is any more sure about it than anyone else, and everybody cannot be correct. Therefore the nature of this belief is not about having God on your side, but having the dogma and the stubbornness of believing oneself is correct, without any evidence.

(sorry about the rant. Hope this has given everyone something to think about).

Satan did not turn into a snake until after he tempted Eve.

I was taught that the snake (named later) lost it's legs as punishment for tempting eve with the apple.

This has always baffled me through 2 things:
1. Were Snakes meant to be able to talk in the same way humans do? and
2. If it was the garden of Eden, with all things eternal and pure, why did the snake actually have any negative plans? And why would the apple be there if everything was pure and divine? Surely there would have to have been something malicious created by God to do such a thing, and why would God cast out Adam and Eve for giving in to the maliciousness? It's a bit like having a gun in world peace and exiling your children for touching it, when you've left a note saying "Touch me".

 

[motherbrainrulez]

No actually he said you will get what you need. not what you want. Two different things there.

no you complete idiot, he says Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him! and also For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.

 

[Squall7]

no you complete idiot, he says Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him! and also For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.

And then the guy looked at his joint and said "That's some f'ed up stuff, right there!". To which God replied, "Yep. Everyday I was creating the earth, I was stoned. Don't believe me? look at Duck billed platapuses. That one gave me a chuckle!" (Sorry, a Bill Hicks moment there)

(Sorry, just though a little humour was appropriate here. Would be interesting to bring up the concept of drug usage at the time the bible was written though.)

 

[NateTheGreat]

^:lol:

It all makes sense now.

 

[Brawny]

Yes, there are many Christians that I will debate just as fervently. The main religion to me is the core beliefs, other less important things are what determines the denomination and whatnot. All Christians don't think exactly the same things. (heck, look at the civil war in Iraq between the shiites and sunnis.

There are a couple gay Christians that I have met. It is not a choice. But they should still not have sex with other men. Kinda like how Marisa shouldn't be all sleeping around even though shes nymphomaniacal (sorry for the spelling murderizing).

Your mention of the divine conception is a miracle you are not supposed to explain it with pure logic. The flood to me is mostly true with some symbolism. I am not saying though that the WHOLE Bible should be read literally or symbolically. Look at the many genres it encompasses. Obviously, poetry should be different than letters and prophesy.

Only taking parts of the Bible and skewing it to back up religion is just as bad as using it to disprove religion. (see linky from motherbrain)

How can something that has condemned people (whilst simultaneously taught that all shall be forgiven)

The condemning is not the same as what you think (see this)

You do bad things, you're going to hell!". "Satan has made you do this".

It is not like that. Yes, every sin you commit makes you deserving of hell. But asking for forgiveness wipes it away. You have to have meaning behind it though. Hitler couldn't just say, i'm sorry and go to heaven.

On the priest situation, I will say you and Nate are arguing over abortion. One is pro-murderizing and one is pro-life. I will say you are both aetheists and should believe the same thing. Now ask yourself the feeling questions.

Isn't every belief that one has about "the stubborness of believing oneself is correct, without any evidence." You are just as stubborn by defending your side as me defending mine.

This has always baffled me through 2 things:
1. Were Snakes meant to be able to talk in the same way humans do? and
2. If it was the garden of Eden, with all things eternal and pure, why did the snake actually have any negative plans? And why would the apple be there if everything was pure and divine? Surely there would have to have been something malicious created by God to do such a thing, and why would God cast out Adam and Eve for giving in to the maliciousness? It's a bit like having a gun in world peace and exiling your children for touching it, when you've left a note saying "Touch me".

First, another symbol. Second, Satan was a spirt, an angel. What and where were you taught previously?

#2 God wanted humans to have a choice. He created them and wanted to love them. It is the same reason why games are better than movies. To us, with original sin, the tree of knowledge seems like a huge temptation, but to Adam and Eve, who were perfect, not so much. The fruit itself was not the source of evil, it just broadened their scope of things. God wanted humans to have a choice, not little robots.

Finally, the Garden of Eden was not inherently perfect, God dwelled there openly

Gotta go now, *sigh* This thread is pretty resistant to time. I'm glad people are asking questions.

 

[NateTheGreat]

Only taking parts of the Bible and skewing it to back up religion is just as bad as using it to disprove religion. (see linky from motherbrain)

I'm not trying to disprove your religion! I've said multiple times if religion helps you get through the day or sleep at night or whatever, then there's nothing wrong with that. I have a number of Christian friends, fyi. I'm simply posing questions to you and other christians because I'm interested in what they might say when they actually have to question themselves.

The condemning is not the same as what you think (see this) It is not like that. Yes, every sin you commit makes you deserving of hell. But asking for forgiveness wipes it away. You have to have meaning behind it though. Hitler couldn't just say, i'm sorry and go to heaven.

Well, what about Baptists? My grandma says "once saved always saved." Why then, must you ask for forgiveness after every sin?

On the priest situation, I will say you and Nate are arguing over abortion. One is pro-murderizing and one is pro-life. I will say you are both aetheists and should believe the same thing. Now ask yourself the feeling questions.

Why do you feel the need to label people? You're making assumptions after I've already stated I'm not tied to organized religion or the opposite of that, aethism. They're two sides of the same coin and I'm not interested in either, though I won't condemn either side. Where am I arguing with whoever you are saying I'm arguing with about abortion? So, I'm the "pro-murderizing" (which isn't even a real word) person, right? Again, you seem to desire a simplistic, black/white/good/bad/christian/atheist label. Being pro-life does not mean you're just for a woman's right to abortion. I've already stated it's relative to the situation, but generally, I want there to be as few abortions as possible and that it not be used as a form of birth control. Being pro-life also means you are in support of better sex education in school, better forms of contraception to be developed and better use of said contraception. I also don't believe in late term abortion unless it will kill the mother and/or child.

Isn't every belief that one has about "the stubborness of believing oneself is correct, without any evidence." You are just as stubborn by defending your side as me defending mine.

Wow, a christian calling me stubborn.:crazy: You are the one tied to a set of static beliefs. I, on the other hand, am not, though I'm not trying to be non-conformist (because really, non-conformists are conformists to non-conformity). I'm not saying "my way or the highway," I myself am, like everyone else, a hypocrite whether I want to admit it because I do judge people based on their appearance. When I see a Hummer role by, I think "thanks jerk; freakin republican" because I assume they don't care about the pollution they're creating and if they don't care about the environment, then they're usually republican. That is so wrong of me to think. I also think when I see people with camo on that they're either into hunting, which I dislike, or the army, which I respect for what they do, but many kids my age say they want to be a soldier to "blow stuff up." Again, I dislike that I do this. I should quit caring about other people and I'm becoming less and less cynical, though it's hard sometimes. Guess I'm just rambling now.
All doney! *said like that weird kid from Katamari Damacy*