Super Smash Bros. 4

[Splash_King]

Every time someone air dodges, they're abusin' it. >_>

 

[Captain]

lol, wouldn't some characters be very overpowered otherwise? Like Marth? Jiggly would also definitely be a lot better, that's cool, I like balanced things.
But at the same time I want as many characters as possible, so that's really hard to balance.

 

[Bodine]

I just want my [strike]phone call[/strike] Mewtwo

 

[Splash_King]

lol, wouldn't some characters be very overpowered otherwise?

Don't see why that'd be the case.

 

[Captain]

For characters that are already really good in the air and that would be able to air juggle you without even trying.

 

[Neosquid]

Rollout is a terribad move, even against nubs, unless they've the brain of a fly and don't understand that you can just jump over the move.

Not really, I've used it to a lot of success with pretty much all ammeters I've played. They aren't playing very intelligently, but that's part of what being a noob is, no? The people I'm talking about aren't horrible players, I'd say average or slightly below average.

Competitive moves can be made to look awesome. Awesome moves that're awesome because of gimmicks cannot be made t' be competitively viable.

The competitive aspect of any fighting game is infinitely more important than pandering to the casuals since said casuals will play and enjoy the game regardless. The extra pandering isn't necessary to keep casuals happy, but balancing and other such competitivenesses is necessary to keep a competitive following happy.

On that note, you're excluding the competitives from your point of view. Do ya think we want balance literally at the costs of aesthetics? Obviously not. Take M2K for example. He's been bloody obsessed with Mewtwo for years. In spite of this, he's never played 'em iin-tourney 'til the release of P:M. Why, ya ask? Because ya don't win tournaments as Mewtwo, he's a god-awful character. M2K would lose bags of money just for playin' his favorite character in-tournament, so he literally can't. Tournaments are his job and livelihood.

As a competitive gamer, our character loyalty is challenged whenever said character ends up bein' poorly balanced and thus are right-****. I stopped playin' Link in Brawl, my favorite character since Smash 64, because I was utterly sick of him bein' Hyrule-tier. It ain't fun bein' under a constant barrage of inescapable, likely-leading-to-a-0-death-gimp pressure. I didn't care that I could still use Link and consistently beat everyone I played with. He's such a bad character, it sucked the fun outta it for me. Imagine how all'a the Melee Falcon players felt come Brawl. Scar must'a been scarred for life.

I guess this makes a lot of sense, but I'm not sold on Rollout leaving. I'm sure the move could be improved to the point of competitive viability. Besides, it's totally possible to makes Jiggs good even if Rollout still sucked. I don't know, while I'm not saying that your argument doesn't make sense, I also think there's good reason to keep Rollout, just having trouble putting my thoughts into words, ahaha.

Every time someone implies a competitive players' aim is just to win, I have the most assuredly illogical urge t' slap the **** outta them.

that was more of a deliberate exaggeration about the fact that competitive people tend to be more concerned about winning than casuals

 

[Captain]

I'm really competitive but as long as it's an even, exciting and fun match, I really don't care who wins.
But on the other hand, people who play it for a lot of money might really care, that's true.

 

[Splash_King]

Not really, I've used it to a lot of success with pretty much all ammeters I've played. They aren't playing very intelligently, but that's part of what being a noob is, no? The people I'm talking about aren't horrible players, I'd say average or slightly below average.

If they don't know how t' jump, they're horrible players lol.

I'm not sold on Rollout leaving.

... That ain't what I was talkin' about.

I'm sure the move could be improved to the point of competitive viability.

Obviously, but it won't happen.

Besides, it's totally possible to makes Jiggs good even if Rollout still sucked.

She's never been good without relyin' on oh-so-broken Rest. Even Melee Jiggles wouldn't be high tier without wielding the constant threat of an instant KO.

I also think there's good reason to keep Rollout.

For the sole sake of consistency, no other good reason.

competitive people tend to be more concerned about winning than casuals

Inane prattle. Countless casuals play to win, and solely to win. In the same vein, competitive players do a little somethin' called "casuals": not playin' to win. For the lulz. Regularly.

Don't try to label a group beyond what it labels itself as. We play to test ourselves, our game, and each other, not to win. In other words we play for fun, as does anyone else.

...

Also money.

 

[Captain]

What if you instantly do a full roll-out, without having to charge it? Or would that be too OP?

 

[Neosquid]

... That ain't what I was talkin' about.

I know, but you were arguing against my arguments I made for the purpose of defending Rollout, so I thought you might have agreed with MR, I wasn't totally sure.

What if you instantly do a full roll-out, without having to charge it? Or would that be too OP?

I don't know what to think of that.

 

[Splash_King]

What if you instantly do a full roll-out, without having to charge it? Or would that be too OP?

terribly op lol

I know, but you were arguing against my arguments I made for the purpose of defending Rollout, so I thought you might have agreed with MR, I wasn't totally sure.

Oh no, not at all. If in an alternate dimension the decision was left to me, I'd buff the move rather than replace it. Would make it cancel-able. Not somethin' instant like a jump cancel, that'd be too good, but the ability to stop Rollout with an input. Like how Glides can be canceled with B.

 

[Mr. MR]

That Thunder looks like a combo continuer
and as Karp said a nasty edge guard

I think there is more of a combo focus in this smash game


Now about Jiggs:
In Melee she had 2 useful Specials; Rest and Pound
Top Tier

In Brawl she had 1 useful Special; Pound
Bottom Tier

Rollout and Sing cripple Jigglys moveset in Melee but she was still able to be a good character.
After they crippled Rest she became unplayable.
If they were to get rid of Rollout or Sing she could have a really good moveset

Lets look at the Melee and Brawl Top Tier:
Fox: 4 useful Specials. 2 of which are used for recovery
Falco: 4 useful Specials. 2 of which are used for recovery

Meta Knight: 4 useful Specials. 4 of which can be used for recovery.

See a pattern here?

 

[Neosquid]

I never disagreed that (unbuffed) Rollout is taking up the moveslot for a potentially more useful move.

 

[Mr. MR]

I never disagreed that (unbuffed) Rollout is taking up the moveslot for a potentially more useful move.

Overall a better Jigglypuff is a more fun Jigglypuff
Being able to beat someone with a Pink Puff Ball Pokemon is fun enough.

 

[Neosquid]

I'm giving up on arguing about this because I don't know what to say anymore. All I'm going to say is that purrsonally I would prefer Rollout stay even if it isn't improved, though obviously I'd prefer to see it puffed more...I mean buffed.