Does God exist?

[RPGMasterTurk91]

Well actually I'm not being hasty at all, to me, this is one of the few things that proves God's existence. There ARE scientific answers to "what created the energy that was required for the big bang", whether we know the science behind it or not. But in the end, the only question that can only have one definite answer is this: Was their an original existence?" And that definite answer has to be yes, I explained earlier that if there was not, this world wouldn't be in existence, as, if the opposite were true, there would be nothing. And it's certainly not true that there is nothing, but rather something. And the original thing could not have been created because it's creator would need a creator, and it's creator's creator would need a creator, so on and so forth. This alone proves to me that God exists. There are various signs in nature that only an intelligent designer could have given certain qualities to certain things.

Did you even read my post? I explained how there could be alternatives to an "original existence". In fact, I think I should elaborate on one point I made: What we percieve as the arrow of time- that is, 'cause and effect'- are a result of the laws of physics (in particular the Second Law of Thermodynamics). The laws of physics are a property of our Universe, but there is no reason to assume thiey should apply beyond it. So the concepts of cause and effect as we understand may not even have applied in the time "before" the Big Bang.

Back to giraffes:

Giraffes have many amazing characteristics. One of these is that their neck stands on 7 vertebrae, just like that of all other mammals, even though it is so long. Another amazing fact about giraffes is that they do not have any problem pumping blood up to their brain on top of their long neck. A little thinking would make one notice how difficult it must be to have the blood pumped so high. But giraffes do not have any problem about this, because their hearts are equipped with features to pump blood as high as necessary. This enables them to carry on with their lives effortlessly.

Yet they still face another problem while they drink water. Essentially, giraffes should have died of high blood pressure every time they bent down to drink water. However, the perfect system in their necks completely eliminates this risk. When they bend down, the valves in their neck vessels are shut down and they prevent excess blood from flowing to the brain.

There is no doubt that the giraffes did not acquire these traits by planning themselves in accordance with their needs. It is even more implausible to say that all these vital features were shaped over time through a gradual and accidental evolutionary process. In order for a giraffe to stay alive, it is vital for it to have a pumping system to transmit blood to the brain and a valve system to prevent high blood pressure the minute it bends down. If any one of these characteristics did not exist or did not function properly, then it would be impossible for the giraffe to go on living.

The conclusion to be derived from all this is that the giraffe species was born into the world with all the characteristics vital for its living already there. It is impossible for a non-existent being to master its body and acquire essential traits consciously. So, the very existence of giraffes unquestionably proves that they are created by a conscious creation, that is by God.

Sigh... Turk, you keep repeating the same old intelligent design argument through those long-winded quotes, but intelligent design is not science, it's not testable, and it provides no quantitative measure of "complexity" (what is the exact point where you can say "this is too complex to have evolved"?). Evolution, meanwhile, has long been accepted by the scientific community, including practically every single biologist in the West. Believe it or not, it really does explain all these things you've quoted, like the giraffe's neck or the communal nature of ants.

Well yeah, I find it funny how for every shred of information or "evidence" you offer, it leads back to evolution. So why then cannot my reasoning be that God is responsible for such things, and not necessarily evolution in itself?

 

[Napalmbrain]

Well yeah, I find it funny how for every shred of information or "evidence" you offer, it leads back to evolution.

That just goes to show how good a theory it is. The reason I keep referring back to it is because you keep trying to argue from the "intelligent design" view (even though that viewpoint is unscientific and untestable), so I keep mentioning the explanation which scientists accept.

So why then cannot my reasoning be that God is responsible for such things, and not necessarily evolution in itself?

Because all your reasoning basically boils down to "god of the gaps" arguments, trying to use God to explain something you don't know how to explain any other way.

 

[RPGMasterTurk91]

Well yeah, I find it funny how for every shred of information or "evidence" you offer, it leads back to evolution.

That just goes to show how good a theory it is. The reason I keep referring back to it is because you keep trying to argue from the "intelligent design" view (even though that viewpoint is unscientific and untestable), so I keep mentioning the explanation which scientists accept.

So why then cannot my reasoning be that God is responsible for such things, and not necessarily evolution in itself?

Because all your reasoning basically boils down to "god of the gaps" arguments, trying to use God to explain something you don't know how to explain any other way.

I could say the same for you with evolution. Yes, it's either it was God--or it wasn't. I am in firm belief that it was God, thus when I explain it, it will come out as only being God and nothing else...same with you and evolution, only, one of them is actually right.

While I see the creations created by an intelligent designer, you trace it back to evolution and evolution alone. There are some who believe in creationism and evolution--God created the evolution process and let it go from there. Deists argue that God created the laws of nature in the world and universe and then left it to be without caring for the affairs of its inhabitants (Deism).

Who said something about needing a certain amount of energy from a star in a certain space to form water? Was it you or storm?

 

[Napalmbrain]

I could say the same for you with evolution. Yes, it's either it was God--or it wasn't. I am in firm belief that it was God, thus when I explain it, it will come out as only being God and nothing else...same with you and evolution, only, one of them is actually right.

While I see the creations created by an intelligent designer, you trace it back to evolution and evolution alone. There are some who believe in creationism and evolution--God created the evolution process and let it go from there. Deists argue that God created the laws of nature in the world and universe and then left it to be without caring for the affairs of its inhabitants (Deism).

I never said that God couldn't have created the Universe and the nature. What I said was that it's fallacious to simply assume that a deity is the only possible explanation. Nor did I say that evolution disproves God's existence- maybe God could have simply put a few microbes in some pond on the ancient Earth and let nature do the rest.

Who said something about needing a certain amount of energy from a star in a certain space to form water? Was it you or storm?

I'm not sure anyone said that. Are you talking about that post where I was talking about how likely it was for Earth-like planets to exist?

 

[RPGMasterTurk91]

Who said something about needing a certain amount of energy from a star in a certain space to form water? Was it you or storm?

I'm not sure anyone said that. Are you talking about that post where I was talking about how likely it was for Earth-like planets to exist?

Yes, I realize that you didn't make mention of such things, which is why this is the second time I was reminded of Deism.

I'll find the post I think it's in another thread.

In the meantime, here's an interesting article, the Signs of God in the Harmony between Water and Plants:

The rains, the seas, rivers, streams, the oceans, drinkable water that flows when you turn on a faucet� People are so used to the existence of water that they probably never think about the fact that a major part of the Earth's surface -indeed, most of it- is covered with water. However, what is singularly important here is that, among all known celestial bodies, only the Earth provides drinkable water.

Water is a basic condition for life, but it is entirely absent from the solar system's 63 other celestial bodies. However, fully four-fifths of the Earth's surface is covered with water. In addition to large water masses such as oceans, there are various other water sources whose sizes and attributes are different from each other, such as rivers and small lakes. Some of these waters are too salty to be drinkable, but others are fresh. There is a perfect water balance that has been arranged according to the needs of all living things on the Earth.

By virtue of water, millions of species of creatures exist on Earth, and the balances that are necessary for life are preserved. For example, clouds and rain are formed by the evaporation of large water masses. Water has a high capacity for drawing and holding heat. For this reason, the large water masses of the oceans and seas maintain the balance of the world's heat. Therefore, the temperature difference between day and night in regions near the sea is very small. This makes these regions more livable.

The existence of the oceans, a bird's-eye view of which is seen at the top of the picture on the page to the right, is highly significant. Because the oceans reflect the sun's rays less than land does, they receive more sun energy, yet they disperse this heat in a more balanced way. Therefore, the oceans cool the equatorial regions and prevent them from becoming excessively hot, and also warm the waters of the polar regions to prevent them from freezing completely.

Through the transparency of water, water mosses can photosynthesize under the surface of the ocean. Water is one of the few substances in nature that expands when frozen. It is because of this that the seas and oceans do not freeze from bottom to top.

All of the physical and chemical features of water, of which only a few have been given here, show us that this liquid has been specially created for the needs of human life. It is surely no coincidence that such water is not available on any other planet besides the Earth. The Earth, which has been specially created for human life, has blossomed with life through water, which has also been specially created. God, Who has created countless blessings for His servants and bestowed on them an easy mode of living, has created water with unique artistry and delicacy.

 

[Napalmbrain]

In the meantime, here's an interesting article, the Signs of God in the Harmony between Water and Plants:

The rains, the seas, rivers, streams, the oceans, drinkable water that flows when you turn on a faucet� People are so used to the existence of water that they probably never think about the fact that a major part of the Earth's surface -indeed, most of it- is covered with water. However, what is singularly important here is that, among all known celestial bodies, only the Earth provides drinkable water.

Water is a basic condition for life, but it is entirely absent from the solar system's 63 other celestial bodies. However, fully four-fifths of the Earth's surface is covered with water. In addition to large water masses such as oceans, there are various other water sources whose sizes and attributes are different from each other, such as rivers and small lakes. Some of these waters are too salty to be drinkable, but others are fresh. There is a perfect water balance that has been arranged according to the needs of all living things on the Earth.

By virtue of water, millions of species of creatures exist on Earth, and the balances that are necessary for life are preserved. For example, clouds and rain are formed by the evaporation of large water masses. Water has a high capacity for drawing and holding heat. For this reason, the large water masses of the oceans and seas maintain the balance of the world's heat. Therefore, the temperature difference between day and night in regions near the sea is very small. This makes these regions more livable.

The existence of the oceans, a bird's-eye view of which is seen at the top of the picture on the page to the right, is highly significant. Because the oceans reflect the sun's rays less than land does, they receive more sun energy, yet they disperse this heat in a more balanced way. Therefore, the oceans cool the equatorial regions and prevent them from becoming excessively hot, and also warm the waters of the polar regions to prevent them from freezing completely.

Through the transparency of water, water mosses can photosynthesize under the surface of the ocean. Water is one of the few substances in nature that expands when frozen. It is because of this that the seas and oceans do not freeze from bottom to top.

All of the physical and chemical features of water, of which only a few have been given here, show us that this liquid has been specially created for the needs of human life. It is surely no coincidence that such water is not available on any other planet besides the Earth. The Earth, which has been specially created for human life, has blossomed with life through water, which has also been specially created. God, Who has created countless blessings for His servants and bestowed on them an easy mode of living, has created water with unique artistry and delicacy.

You're just repeating the argument from design again, only with chemistry rather than biology. Besides, there is water on other worlds- on Mars, the Moon, a few satellites, and in comets. There's strong evidence to suggest Europa has an ocean underneath its surface.

Also, this is just a little nitpick, but the Solar System has far, far more than 63 bodies in it (Jupiter alone has about that many moons).

 

[RPGMasterTurk91]

In the meantime, here's an interesting article, the Signs of God in the Harmony between Water and Plants:

The rains, the seas, rivers, streams, the oceans, drinkable water that flows when you turn on a faucet� People are so used to the existence of water that they probably never think about the fact that a major part of the Earth's surface -indeed, most of it- is covered with water. However, what is singularly important here is that, among all known celestial bodies, only the Earth provides drinkable water.

Water is a basic condition for life, but it is entirely absent from the solar system's 63 other celestial bodies. However, fully four-fifths of the Earth's surface is covered with water. In addition to large water masses such as oceans, there are various other water sources whose sizes and attributes are different from each other, such as rivers and small lakes. Some of these waters are too salty to be drinkable, but others are fresh. There is a perfect water balance that has been arranged according to the needs of all living things on the Earth.

By virtue of water, millions of species of creatures exist on Earth, and the balances that are necessary for life are preserved. For example, clouds and rain are formed by the evaporation of large water masses. Water has a high capacity for drawing and holding heat. For this reason, the large water masses of the oceans and seas maintain the balance of the world's heat. Therefore, the temperature difference between day and night in regions near the sea is very small. This makes these regions more livable.

The existence of the oceans, a bird's-eye view of which is seen at the top of the picture on the page to the right, is highly significant. Because the oceans reflect the sun's rays less than land does, they receive more sun energy, yet they disperse this heat in a more balanced way. Therefore, the oceans cool the equatorial regions and prevent them from becoming excessively hot, and also warm the waters of the polar regions to prevent them from freezing completely.

Through the transparency of water, water mosses can photosynthesize under the surface of the ocean. Water is one of the few substances in nature that expands when frozen. It is because of this that the seas and oceans do not freeze from bottom to top.

All of the physical and chemical features of water, of which only a few have been given here, show us that this liquid has been specially created for the needs of human life. It is surely no coincidence that such water is not available on any other planet besides the Earth. The Earth, which has been specially created for human life, has blossomed with life through water, which has also been specially created. God, Who has created countless blessings for His servants and bestowed on them an easy mode of living, has created water with unique artistry and delicacy.

You're just repeating the argument from design again, only with chemistry rather than biology. Besides, there is water on other worlds- on Mars, the Moon, a few satellites, and in comets. There's strong evidence to suggest Europa has an ocean underneath its surface.

Also, this is just a little nitpick, but the Solar System has far, far more than 63 bodies in it (Jupiter alone has about that many moons).

Of course its using the same argument--I'm posting more about proofs that God exists, signs of God's existence, which rules out the argument of " simply coincidence over millions and millions of years".

Europa has drinkable water that is capable of sustaining life?

Apparently, the number 63 indeed refers to Jupiter's 63 moons. Why that number was used I don't know, but it wasn't a random number.

 

[Shadow*91]

from your point of view, your arguement makes perfect sense. God created everything that was needed then let nature take its course.

but from our point of view, thats completely wrong. where's the proof of God? you say there's proof everywhere, but all your pointing out is what science hasn't discovered yet. you find articles of the same opinion, which basically comes down to 'if we can't prove it, its because of God'
that's been pretty much your entire arguement, whike we have presented multiple areguements against that. you need to find something new to try and prove your point Turk because your losing this at every turn.

 

[RPGMasterTurk91]

from your point of view, your arguement makes perfect sense. God created everything that was needed then let nature take its course.

but from our point of view, thats completely wrong. where's the proof of God? you say there's proof everywhere, but all your pointing out is what science hasn't discovered yet. you find articles of the same opinion, which basically comes down to 'if we can't prove it, its because of God'
that's been pretty much your entire arguement, whike we have presented multiple areguements against that. you need to find something new to try and prove your point Turk because your losing this at every turn.

I see it as you guys losing this at every which turn. Your point?

I'm not explaining things that science hasn't got to yet. Again, to me, these are signs that God clearly DOES exist. To you, everything can be traced back to an improbable occurrence of coincidences upon coincidences. That, my friend, I find to be completely illogical.

And no, I said that that was the DEISTS point of view, not necessarily mine. I didn't say that made perfect sense--because I don't believe it to be. If you continue to ignore what I actually write and interpret things in a twisted manner, I'm gonna have to believe that any of your points are automatically deemed invalid.

 

[Shadow*91]

judging from how you typed them that was the impression i got. you word your posts better.

 

[Napalmbrain]

I think it's safe to say this argument is probably never going to go anywhere. The simple fact is, I don't accept the argument from design as valid, so no amount of quotes about the complexity the Universe is going to convince me God exists.

 

[RPGMasterTurk91]

I think it's safe to say this argument is probably never going to go anywhere. The simple fact is, I don't accept the argument from design as valid, so no amount of quotes about the complexity the Universe is going to convince me God exists.

I'm in agreement with you there. In the meantime, I'm simply posting things up because I don't see the harm in doing so. I won't think you're "giving in" if you don't refute the articles, the articles are simply there to read and reflect on. It's clear that we have different interpretations of the articles, so we need not argue over them, though we can discuss the legitimacy behind them being from God (which is essentially what we've been doing).

BTW, I sincerely enjoy the fact that most people writing in this thread are people who think and reason. I don't think you guys are evil (lol if I did) or anything, and you guys aren't "far from logic" to me (if thats the impression you got of me).

 

[GCommander]

I personally am on my way on NOT believing in god.

Most of the females in my family (aunts, cousines, grandmas) believe in god and some saints. They ask for special favors and if it comes true they light up a candle and pray to them. For example when my grandma was sick my mom prayed to a saint and when my grandma got better my mom lit up a candle.
So I am expected to be atleast a bit religious and believe in god but I look at stuff in a different angle.

I like disproving stuff to my family like when my mom says "thank god" I usually say that that is not a reasonable explanation. There are more reasonable explanations for stuff to happen. If someone is in the hospital and they get better, I believe that it's thanks to the hard work of the doctors and scientist that created medicines for the recoveries not god.
I'm not a dick and walk up to people at hard times and tell them that god is not real.

The reason for me not being religious is because I have tried praying for special favors too and they weren't granted. So I said **** it.

So no, he possibly doesn't exist.

 

[RPGMasterTurk91]

I personally am on my way on NOT believing in god.

Most of the females in my family (aunts, cousines, grandmas) believe in god and some saints. They ask for special favors and if it comes true they light up a candle and pray to them. For example when my grandma was sick my mom prayed to a saint and when my grandma got better my mom lit up a candle.
So I am expected to be atleast a bit religious and believe in god but I look at stuff in a different angle.

I like disproving stuff to my family like when my mom says "thank god" I usually say that that is not a reasonable explanation. There are more reasonable explanations for stuff to happen. If someone is in the hospital and they get better, I believe that it's thanks to the hard work of the doctors and scientist that created medicines for the recoveries not god.
I'm not a dick and walk up to people at hard times and tell them that god is not real.

The reason for me not being religious is because I have tried praying for special favors too and they weren't granted. So I said **** it.

So no, he possibly doesn't exist.

Praying to Saints is popular in Catholocism, especially among Hispanic families. I have a Mexican friend who said that he was brought up with something that teaches him to worship and pray to saints--human beings--for things. I love it when Christians say that "Jesus answers prayers". Even when the prayers are answered, it's God answering them, not a mere human being who cannot handle anything more than a human being can handle. Many people haver different experiences with God. Just because your prayers aren't answered doesn't prove or make probable that God doesn't exist. You're saying that if he did exist, he would have answered your prayers, and since he didn't, he probably doesn't exist. I personally think that it's only logical to believe in a single, intelligent creator, God, with infinite power who created the whole universe, and that by the end of the day, our lives are just a test.

 

[GCommander]

^Yeah pretty much.
I am Mexican.
I would probably believe in him if he answered some prayers but then again I believe more in reason than religion.