Brawl - More or Less Balanced than Melee?

[JKill09]

For Pit I like the 'Raptor Booster' (If you're a Capt. Falcon user).
Pit's big spam moves =
- His Forward B
- His UAir (Maybe Up special. it's the one where he spins his sword upward)
- His arrows.

If you dodge one arrow and use the Booster you can get Pit in the air for a nice mid-air grapple(Up+B). This hurts the other player's play style because you would have successfully:
- Dodged the arrow
- Remained far enough from his Forward B (since Raptor Booster has a nice range)
- Placed yourself under/beside him so his Up move wouldn't work (Raptor Booster puts the character it hits in the air.)
- Performed a counterattack/combo (His Up+B is used to grapple an opponent in the air. Many Pits I play against often try to linger in the air after this so it opens up a nice Knee opportunity. Then you ground them with a Down+A and repeat.)

Sure you may be caught in the spam once in a while but using Falcon's unique "self-projectile" moves (Raptor Booster, Vulcan Cannon) I can combat a Pit user. He still may beat me simply because all it'll take is a special move or something (not to mention his swordspinning helps him get the Smash Ball oh so easily.) but at least I can put up a fight.

Tiers are existent and the argument is senseless. It's true that I had to think of a full combo and strategy to combat one simple button push from a Pit user. Insanity? Possibly. I never said I hated it though. Let's me feel good about myself. He can beat me with spam and feel good, but if I was able to avoid the spam of a top-tier and insert a nice combo here and there... I'd feel accomplished I suppose. Would it be better if we could fight evenly? Definitely. But that's not going to happen anytime soon so we might as well make the best of it.

 

[spiff-ssbb]

^ that only works situationally. there are no specific moves that can counter his arrows you just gotta metagame him a little. and the side b isn't much of a spam move... its also situational. if spammed it can be easily predicted and countered. and the move you were talking about is his u air. u special is his flight

 

[LevesqueIsKing]

The raptor boost has TERRIBLE priority. One swipe of his sword and my entire animation is dead, leaving me wide open with the post-animation lag.

Regardless, I don't need tips on how to beat him, I was just looking for a discussion.

 

[Jay61]

When Pit spams his arrows I just start crawling...

Although that wouldn't help a cpt Falcon user, would it :lol:.

 

[JKill09]

^ that only works situationally. there are no specific moves that can counter his arrows you just gotta metagame him a little. and the side b isn't much of a spam move... its also situational. if spammed it can be easily predicted and countered. and the move you were talking about is his u air. u special is his flight

Yes it is UAir. The flight thing slipped my mind. I do know it's situational. Using the same combo consecutively will not give you a win. My whole post was just trying to sway these "there's no tier" believers into the direction of reality. Though the first post states the thread wasn't meant to be about tiers... that's what happened basically, and the fact that people refuse to notice this seems kind of strange to me.

The raptor boost has TERRIBLE priority. One swipe of his sword and my entire animation is dead, leaving me wide open with the post-animation lag.

Regardless, I don't need tips on how to beat him, I was just looking for a discussion.

That wasn't my intent. I wasn't trying to give tips, just merely showing how somebody going against Pit has to have so much more strategy/skill than the Pit player does. I have found that (raptor boost) to work only when I'm catching Pit off-guard because as you said, Falcon will be left vulnerable if attacked during it. It IS very situational. Possibilities are endless when explaining how to combat an opponent. "If he jumps do this..." it would be almost impossible. I was just trying to back up your point(about Brawl being unbalanced in a sense) / relate to your situation (of Capt. Falcon VS Pit) because my friend uses Pit often and I use Capt. Falcon. He didn't own a Gamecube and bought Brawl a week after me. I have a considerable amount of experience compared to him yet... I get beat often. It's frustrating.

 

[spiff-ssbb]

When Pit spams his arrows I just start crawling...

Although that wouldn't help a cpt Falcon user, would it :lol:.

that only works of the guy doenst know how to aim his arrows... he can snipe you pretty easy otherwise

to JayKill: i've actually come to the conclusion that CF is only useful against non or weak projectile characters. he's too easily handled if your always afraid of an arrow barrage. but i could be wrong... only countless MORE hours of gameplay will tell lol

 

[JKill09]

I agree completely. He has no projectile and he has difficulty handling projectiles. ^^Also I agree with you about Pit lol. It's so simple to curve arrows and snipe the crawler. So yea Capt. Falcon is very difficult to use against projectile users. I sometimes use Luigi (his tier isn't very high I don't think) and he has a better chance of putting up a good fight. (Maybe I just like the people who throw themselves quickly across the stage? :shocked: Green Missile VS Vulcan Cannon.)

Oh and it's not JayKill. You combined Jay61 and JKill lol

 

[Chewy]

A newb shouldn't be able to consistently beat a veteran, that stands for everything in life. Only in rare cases does this fault, such as when the veteran himself is a noob, or the newb is naturally gifted or highly dedicated.

None of these are the case. I'd say I've clocked ~30 hours and he's clocked >3 hours.

I'm pretty sure that was actually what Sakurai was aiming for. He wanted it so a casual player could have a chance at beating a veteran. I'm pretty sure he stated just that on smashbros.com, but I'm not quite sure where specifically. I actually like it this way because then my friends have a chance against me, because I find it boring playing someone when I'm just destroying them every time.

I wouldn't consider that balanced though, because if it were truly balanced than the player with the higher skill would win every time. The only way for a game to be truly balanced is by having all the characters have the same damage, reach, and speed for all their moves, but that would just be boring.

Some people are just naturally better with certain characters. Somebody who uses a high tier character and is a pro could get owned by a character that they think sucks. The balance is not perfect, but it is balanced enough IMO.

A lot of characters do have really cheap moves though(I hate how they made Ike invincible while using his up-b). But if you abuse those moves and spam them and such, I don't even want to play you. It isn't all about winning for me though, its about fun. And stuff like that can just ruin the fun in a game.

 

[LeWaffles]

Yoshi was way more overmatched in Melee than in brawl. I wasn't that good, but i don't remember using ANY combos with Yoshi (although i was a huge shield spammer so i may not know what i'm talking about). IDK it seems like in Melee the characters that would be used; FOX, Falco, Mario, Captain Falcon, Ganondorf and Marth and Roy especially. Even though Pit and Ike are the most common online, you still seed a wide variety of characters being played as, and the good players can be any character, although usually it's not pit IMO he's a spammer character.

 

[PrinceLink]

A newb shouldn't be able to consistently beat a veteran, that stands for everything in life.

Have you heard of a company called Nintendo Levessque? there based on the sole idea to kill gamers and kick them into they die a horbile death then give gaming to non gamers like grandparents and 2 year olds.
I mean the president of Nintendo America Reggie said this about mario kart and i quote "For the first time in years a mario kart newbe(said something else but i can not remember) will be able to race side by side with a mario kart veteran." E3 press conference

And for brawl i dont i do get my @ss handed to me when i play as snake against someone like lucario or pit who just spam, Roster is very unblanced

 

[Lugia]

well if he mains falc and he cant get into someone spamming projectiles i must be screwed as a ganon user.

i believe this new found level of imbalance should go against this games nearly perfect ratings. now im saying its more like a 6/10 being so newb and spam friendly.

 

[mushroomedmario]

wow, i can't believe so many people think the game is unbalanced,

i play a lot of people that aren't as good as me(usually co-workers at my work's brawl parties)

and i only get beaten by my one co-worker(we're semi-rivals) and no matter who i am(we always have matches where we pick random) the results are basically always the same(unless i get stuck with metaknight and ganondorf, i just suck with them)

in my opinion, LIK, your friend must have natural skill, because i've beaten so many co-workers that main pit, and with ease too

OR captain falcon might just suck against pit, i mean the characters are balanced, yes, but some characters suck against other characters

like rock paper scissors, they're all perfectly balanced, but a rock always beats scissors etc.

 

[Douten]

The game is unbalanced it's just a fact. We can't really determine how unbalance it is since it's only been release for a month or two. What we can judge now is based on what some characters can do v.s. others. Who is to say, though, that some time down the road there won't be things that will change this (Like new ATs, or better way of using a certain character)? Even with previous ATs, the game will remain unbalance if you were to apply the same concept that we're using (X amount of skill vs X amount of skill).

I don't see the big deal of "limiting" the quick responses, there's rules set to make things more fair. Wouldn't it be mad if SSBB some how were built in favor of people who's good at math? The developers seem to think that in SSBB how fast you can press one button to the next shouldn't be the only factor in determining your victory. Perhaps some strategies and mind games is what they opted for?

Sorry to say but "All Veteran should be able to beat noob np" is really arrogance. And for new games I don't think you would be considered "Veterans" until you've played it for a good amount of time and know it inside and out. Really though, if there is some challenges I would expect people to welcome it as oppose to bickering how "kiddy the game is cause a noob can beat me..."

 

[Lugia]

saying noobs should lose isnt arrogance, its natural. anyone remember when i said this game has no learning curve? of course i got bashed for it but it seems im right. spam works. amazing...

 

[Douten]

Saying that in this game does come off as arrogance since it's relatively new, especially if you are losing to a "noob". I can understand if you play the game for years, pratically know it inside and out, and some random new person came up and beat you. There might be a point then, but still that could just mean that the person simply has more mind game than you.

Saying the game has no learning curve because spam works is ludicrous. First off spam does not work. Their damage and kill potential decreases as they repeat it. When people spam they become very predictable and easily punished. Second, if their spam is working on the other player wouldn't that player have to come up with a mind game to counter the spam, a steeper learning curve? This is especially true for the spammer, if they are punished, they'll learn there's more to spamming.

That's comparable to if I was to say SCII has no learning curve because anyone who button smash can beat me. Not because I don't learn to block, counter, grab, etc. but button smash just can win the match!